One morning, while Rick Montgomery was Pres. at PCGS, I had the privilege of being invited to his office to jointly evaluate the 1965-67 SMS vs. non-SMS question (with slabbed and unslabbed coins in hand as well). Bottom line of what I walked out of that meeting with -
1. There are no diagnostics.
2. It is all about SURFACE TEXTURE and the ability to determine the difference through a well trained eye and having seen a gadzillion coins.
THE SECRET IS NOW OUT.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>I am still wondering how you can have a Cameo coin in a circulation set. Not my coin but I think it deserves a review. >>
Dear LindeDad,
I believe it is more then just the one coin. I would like PCGS to look at and comment on the following sets that list an example of 1967 Kennedy half (coin number 6710) grade by PCGS as MS 67CA.
1. Princess Ellaina Kennedy Date Set - 2nd Finest Set of All Time Kennedy Half Dollars Date Set, Circulation Strikes (1964-Present)
3. Princess Ellaina Kennedy MS (Var.) Collection Kennedy Half Dollars with Varieties, Circulation Strikes (1964-Present)
4. Princess Ellaina Complete Kennedy Collection - 2nd Finest Set of All Time Kennedy Half Dollars Complete Set (1964-Present)
5. Princess Ellaina Silver Kennedy Circulation Set - 3rd Finest Set of All Time Kennedy Half Dollars Silver Short Set, Circulation Strikes (1964-1970)
Population of PCGS (coin number 6710) in MS 67CA is 10 coins, maybe five of them are here?
Tim
Edit to add: My misstake, I thought you could only have a coin in one set but it has been explained to me differently. Thanks and sorry for the mistake.
"I am still wondering how you can have a Cameo coin in a circulation set. Not my coin but I think it deserves a review."
(My two cents) Simple:
1. Mechaincal Error 2. Submittor choses to sell off coin rather than simply send it back to PCGS to fix. HERE IS WHERE MANY PROBLEMS DEVELOP - TIME TO ORGANIZE A "COIN POSSE" TO STOP THIS KIND OF STUFF?? 3. Collector buys coin paying whatever the (outrageous) asking price is for the "pop 1" or low pop coin. 4. Collector realizes later he made a mistake buying the mechanical error (especially when numerous collectors and/or dealers email him concerning the "bogus" coin in his set) and wants full reimbursement from PCGS for whatever he paid the seller. 5. PCGS takes position that the mechanical error was obvious and they are not responsible for whatever a collector decides to bid on ebay (or wherever) for such a coin. Buyer should take it up with the seller of the mechanical error to get his money back.
Should PCGS pay whatever a buyer decides to bid (on ebay or elsewhere) for an obvious mechanical error? I'll reserve my opinion for later. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
A coin that has been submitted for grading from a dealer or collectors club member. Coin has been graded / labeled / sealed in it's holder/ and through 2 stages of verification. Coin has been shipped by PCGS to the submitter
2. Submittor choses to sell off coin rather than simply send it back to PCGS to fix. HERE IS WHERE MANY PROBLEMS DEVELOP - TIME TO ORGANIZE A "COIN POSSE" TO STOP THIS KIND OF STUFF??
Submitter receives coin does not realize PCGS made a "Mechanical Error"
3. Collector buys coin paying whatever the (outrageous) asking price is for the "pop 1" or low pop coin.
Collector Buys coin paying for the PCGS Label, Pop 1 coin - D mint coin - P mint coin - Proof coin - MS coin
4. Collector realizes later he made a mistake buying the mechanical error (especially when numerous collectors and/or dealers email him concerning the "bogus" coin in his set) and wants full reimbursement from PCGS for whatever he paid the seller.
Collector Realizes this coin is not what the Label says it is. For instance Label says it's a D mint, as this is what the collector wanted. Upon inspection of the coin although the label say's it's a D mint coin, the coin in the holder is a P mint. Collector tries to contact seller to no avail. Collector is now stuck with a Mechanical Error? D mint coin cost $500.00 P mint coin cost $50.00 Buyer is eating $40.00 This does not seem fair to the buyer of said PCGS coin.
5. PCGS takes position that the mechanical error was obvious and they are not responsible for whatever a collector decides to bid on ebay (or wherever) for such a coin. Buyer should take it up with the seller of the mechanical error to get his money back.
If it is SO obvious, how did it leave the building
"If it is SO obvious, how did it leave the building"
Mas: I know you are perfect and never make mistakes. I also assume from your comment it is fine with you for a submittor to sell off obvious mechanical errors and let the buyer fend for himself to get his money back from the grading service, since in your world, they are expected to be perfect like you as well. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
As usual attack!!! you just don't like hearing others valid points. Oh, I forgot your the only one that makes sense here
<< <i> I know you are perfect and never make mistakes. >>
Wondercoin, I never said I don't make mistakes.
The scenario I displayed has recently happened to me. I accepted the coin back and have it in my pile of returns, like a good little dealer I pulled the coin from a PCGS box checked the label and sent it to the buyer. I guess we can not take for granted the coin is what the label say's it is?
My comments where not directed at the obvious but at the unobvious which also falls into the Mechanical Error
But thanks for the compliment. I thought you where the only perfect one here. I would like to stay in the perfect and always right world with you but as I said above I made a mistake so I must step down and leave you in your Perfect world all alone
Mas - Please post anything constructive. Commenting to my post that a mechanical error is "obvious" is hardly constructive. You never did address the issue of whether the submittor should bear responsibility for selling the mechanical error - just a non-constructive comment about the mechanical error being obvious before it leaves a building. And, as they said in Meet of Fockers - you are riding my posts like I am Seabiscuit. After you take you "final ride", please hop off - I won't repond to whatever reply you have. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Oreville - Talk about a "wolve is sheep's clothing", how much did that one cost to mail out to PCGS plus fees. I would ask PCGS were my Booker T was. LOL.
I'm glad you have a seens of humor!! Thanks for the picture. Tim
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>Mas - Please post anything constructive. Commenting to my post that a mechanical error is "obvious" is hardly constructive. You never did address the issue of whether the submittor should bear responsibility for selling the mechanical error - just a non-constructive comment about the mechanical error being obvious before it leaves a building. And, as they said in Meet of Fockers - you are riding my posts like I am Seabiscuit. After you take you "final ride", please hop off - I won't repond to whatever reply you have. Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin - There you go again, singing along like you are the Man. Speaking of addressing Issue's, you seem to be the king of skirting them.
Thanks for not replying to this post. I'll be sure to keep watch and Try to be more constructive. Again thank you for the spanking - Sir Perfect
Providing a guarantee is like being pregnant, you either do or you don't. PCGS does this on a full-time basis and considers themselves to be professionals. This issue goes beyond "Registry Set" collectors and the dealers that profit from this. What about the guy who may be putting "Rare" coins away as an investment and is not as knowledgeable as some one working on a registry set. Why is it so hard to believe that a coin, as the ones you have mentioned, might be a MS 69. Aren't there 100 +/- year old coins in this grade. Could there not be 10-20 year old coins in this grade? I think that TPG Companies and their slabs will be hitting the proverbial fan soon. There is such a proliferation of companies out there, that sooner or latter Congress is going to have to take some action to protect consumers. Those companies that fail to rise to a certain standard will fail.
Comments
1. There are no diagnostics.
2. It is all about SURFACE TEXTURE and the ability to determine the difference through a well trained eye and having seen a gadzillion coins.
THE SECRET IS NOW OUT.
Wondercoin
Princess Ellaina Silver Kennedy Circulation Set - 3rd Finest Set of All Time
And yes I realize it goes back to the MS vs. SMS question.
<< <i>I am still wondering how you can have a Cameo coin in a circulation set. Not my coin but I think it deserves a review. >>
Dear LindeDad,
I believe it is more then just the one coin. I would like PCGS to look at and comment on the following sets that list an example of 1967 Kennedy half (coin number 6710) grade by PCGS as MS 67CA.
1. Princess Ellaina Kennedy Date Set - 2nd Finest Set of All Time Kennedy Half Dollars Date Set, Circulation Strikes (1964-Present)
2. Princess Ellaina Kennedy MS Collection Kennedy Half Dollars Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1964-Present)
3. Princess Ellaina Kennedy MS (Var.) Collection Kennedy Half Dollars with Varieties, Circulation Strikes (1964-Present)
4. Princess Ellaina Complete Kennedy Collection - 2nd Finest Set of All Time Kennedy Half Dollars Complete Set (1964-Present)
5. Princess Ellaina Silver Kennedy Circulation Set - 3rd Finest Set of All Time Kennedy Half Dollars Silver Short Set, Circulation Strikes (1964-1970)
Population of PCGS (coin number 6710) in MS 67CA is 10 coins, maybe five of them are here?
Tim
Edit to add: My misstake, I thought you could only have a coin in one set but it has been explained to me differently. Thanks and sorry for the mistake.
(My two cents) Simple:
1. Mechaincal Error
2. Submittor choses to sell off coin rather than simply send it back to PCGS to fix. HERE IS WHERE MANY PROBLEMS DEVELOP - TIME TO ORGANIZE A "COIN POSSE" TO STOP THIS KIND OF STUFF??
3. Collector buys coin paying whatever the (outrageous) asking price is for the "pop 1" or low pop coin.
4. Collector realizes later he made a mistake buying the mechanical error (especially when numerous collectors and/or dealers email him concerning the "bogus" coin in his set) and wants full reimbursement from PCGS for whatever he paid the seller.
5. PCGS takes position that the mechanical error was obvious and they are not responsible for whatever a collector decides to bid on ebay (or wherever) for such a coin. Buyer should take it up with the seller of the mechanical error to get his money back.
Should PCGS pay whatever a buyer decides to bid (on ebay or elsewhere) for an obvious mechanical error? I'll reserve my opinion for later.
Wondercoin
A coin that has been submitted for grading from a dealer or collectors club member. Coin has been graded / labeled / sealed in it's holder/ and through 2 stages of verification. Coin has been shipped by PCGS to the submitter
2. Submittor choses to sell off coin rather than simply send it back to PCGS to fix. HERE IS WHERE MANY PROBLEMS DEVELOP - TIME TO ORGANIZE A "COIN POSSE" TO STOP THIS KIND OF STUFF??
Submitter receives coin does not realize PCGS made a "Mechanical Error"
3. Collector buys coin paying whatever the (outrageous) asking price is for the "pop 1" or low pop coin.
Collector Buys coin paying for the PCGS Label, Pop 1 coin - D mint coin - P mint coin - Proof coin - MS coin
4. Collector realizes later he made a mistake buying the mechanical error (especially when numerous collectors and/or dealers email him concerning the "bogus" coin in his set) and wants full reimbursement from PCGS for whatever he paid the seller.
Collector Realizes this coin is not what the Label says it is. For instance Label says it's a D mint, as this is what the collector wanted. Upon inspection of the coin although the label say's it's a D mint coin, the coin in the holder is a P mint. Collector tries to contact seller to no avail. Collector is now stuck with a Mechanical Error? D mint coin cost $500.00 P mint coin cost $50.00 Buyer is eating $40.00 This does not seem fair to the buyer of said PCGS coin.
5. PCGS takes position that the mechanical error was obvious and they are not responsible for whatever a collector decides to bid on ebay (or wherever) for such a coin. Buyer should take it up with the seller of the mechanical error to get his money back.
If it is SO obvious, how did it leave the building
Mas: I know you are perfect and never make mistakes. I also assume from your comment it is fine with you for a submittor to sell off obvious mechanical errors and let the buyer fend for himself to get his money back from the grading service, since in your world, they are expected to be perfect like you as well.
Wondercoin
<< <i> I know you are perfect and never make mistakes. >>
Wondercoin, I never said I don't make mistakes.
The scenario I displayed has recently happened to me. I accepted the coin back and have it in my pile of returns, like a good little dealer
My comments where not directed at the obvious but at the unobvious which also falls into the Mechanical Error
But thanks for the compliment. I thought you where the only perfect one here. I would like to stay in the perfect and always right world with you but as I said above I made a mistake so I must step down and leave you in your Perfect world all alone
Wondercoin
I'm glad you have a seens of humor!! Thanks for the picture.
Tim
Steve
In memory of the USAF Security Forces lost: A1C Elizabeth N. Jacobson, 9/28/05; SSgt Brian McElroy, 1/22/06; TSgt Jason Norton, 1/22/06; A1C Lee Chavis, 10/14/06; SSgt John Self, 5/14/07; A1C Jason Nathan, 6/23/07; SSgt Travis Griffin, 4/3/08; 1Lt Joseph Helton, 9/8/09; SrA Nicholas J. Alden, 3/3/2011. God Bless them and all those who have lost loved ones in this war. I will never forget their loss.
<< <i>Mas - Please post anything constructive. Commenting to my post that a mechanical error is "obvious" is hardly constructive. You never did address the issue of whether the submittor should bear responsibility for selling the mechanical error - just a non-constructive comment about the mechanical error being obvious before it leaves a building. And, as they said in Meet of Fockers - you are riding my posts like I am Seabiscuit. After you take you "final ride", please hop off - I won't repond to whatever reply you have. Wondercoin >>
Wondercoin - There you go again, singing along like you are the Man. Speaking of addressing Issue's, you seem to be the king of skirting them.
Thanks for not replying to this post. I'll be sure to keep watch and Try to be more constructive. Again thank you for the spanking - Sir Perfect
I won't pay "stupid" money for one....but will pay a premium.
Brian
I LOVE
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Andy