Jester's Challenge #4

1jester · February 4, 2003 6:22AM

Welcome, Darkside Collectors (and all others who wish to participate)!!!

Inspired by others here on the Darkside forum, including Severo, Rublevik, Ajaan, Cacheman, Aethelred, Mongoose, Wybrit, LordMarcovan, Askari, Shirohniichan and many others, I'd like to start what I hope will turn into a great learning experience for all of us. The above-mentioned members, and many others, have done a formidable job in sharing with us many fascinating and historically important coins. Since that's one of the greatest pleasures to me, I'd like to try to follow in that time-honored tradition and submit for your pleasure and entertainment some world coins I've come across in my short lifetime.

I will pick out a coin on a regular basis, and post it along with the challenge to you to name the coin, its provenance, denomination, metallic content, mintage, any distinguishing characteristics or noteworthy features, and its value. The more information, the better. I'd like as many people as possible to participate, regardless of how little knowledge you might have on the subject. I appreciate comments on every aspect of the coin, including its history, or its role in human history, or info on similar coins in its series, etc. I myself don't assume to know 1/100 of what you collectively know, hence my challenge to all of you to share your knowledge with the rest of us. Hopefully this exercise will encourage thought, discussion, and primarily more friendship.

Thanks for your participation!!!

Here goes the fourth selection:

Rublevik · February 4, 2003 7:09AM

Okay, I'm out of my depth here. The reverse shield seems to incorporate both the Polish eagle and the Lithuanian horseman (Vytautas?).

The obverse legend says something about Leopold, but I don't think that is the Polish king.

My guess is that the coin is commemorating or in someway related to the Polish lifting of the siege of Vienna by the Turks (but that was in the 1680s, so I might be way off base on that one). The coin is obviously gold and is probably a ducat.

Am I even close?

1jester · February 4, 2003 7:15AM

You are indeed close, Rublevik. The date is 1700. Some of the legend reads "D.G. FRID AUG REX POL...". Now let's see if our resident expert Askari can fill in some other details (we want to give everybody a fair chance....

)

Rublevik · February 4, 2003 7:36AM

<< <i>Some of the legend reads "D.G. FRID AUG REX POL..." >>

Thank you, I see it now. I was having some difficulty interpreting the legends correctly. The part you quote above is a dead giveaway as to the identity of the obverse portrait.

1jester · February 4, 2003 7:51AM

Indeed, I'm not surprised the letters on this coin give people some trouble; the coin, although at one time (probably in the not-so-distant past) a virtually pristine example, with a beautiful, stunning, deep patina, was unfortunately subjected to an all-too common sacrilige--being bent to test for authenticity. Thereafter, it was further abused by being stuck between two flat surfaces and hammered (?) flat. At least that's what I suspect. The high points all show a newer, shiny rubbing which leads me to that conclusion. My guess is that this outrage occured during or after the second world war.

Clue: it's pretty rare.

Askari · February 4, 2003 3:04PM

Sorry, but I'm working late nights this week.

While I appreciate your accolade of my expertise, it's certainly not in this period!!

The full obverse legend reads "D.G. FRID AUG REX POL D S ICMA&W" and refers to Dei Gratia Friedrich August I, King of Poland (1697-1733) and Duke of Saxony (1694-1733), Julich, Cleves, Berg (Mon.), Angria & Westphalia.

The reverse legend reads "S.R.I. ARCHIM & ELECT 1700" -- Archimarshal & Elector of the Holy Roman Empire (Sacri Romani Imperii). The letters ILH are the mintmaster's initials -- in this case, Johann Lorenz Holland, who was master at the Chemnitz Mint from 1698-1716.

The arms are an unusual variant and I'll need to do a little more research tomorrow night to pin it down. What size is it? Perhaps a 3 Ducat?

Rublevik · February 4, 2003 10:24PM

I think it is one of those places that is sometimes in "Germany" and at other times in "Poland" (the border has been known to move around).

I think it is a "German" coin from Saxony.

1jester · February 4, 2003 10:55PM

As far as I understand, this coin was minted in Leipzig (currently Germany), in Saxony. I don't know the connection between Johann Lorenz Holland and Leipzig, even if he was chief moneyer at Chemnitz. Frederik August II (he's called the 2nd in Poland) had just been elected king of Poland, but had not been authorized by the Polish parliament to mint coins. I don't know why. But he needed coins for commerce, and minted them in his hometown. This one is very rare. It is not a 3 ducat.

Askari · February 5, 2003 12:51PM

Well, I didn't do too bad for a midnight post after a long day.

If it was struck at the Leipzig Mint, I'd expect it would have the Leipzig mintmark or the ELH, fish mark of the Leipzig Mintmaster, Ernst Peter Hecht. Perhaps what happened was that it was struck with Taler dies, not an unknown practice at that time. The obverse, in fact, looks like a Saxon Taler struck under Master Holland from 1698-1701. The reverse is a bit unusual, as I mentioned before, in that it is a combination of Polish and Saxon elements only rarely imitated. The Polish coat-of-arms is rendered in a style typical of Polish coins of the era, while the crossed palm fronds are a usual Saxon element ... only the fronds usually point inward, not outward.

Nor would this coin be the first struck by Friedrich August (the I of Saxony and the II of Poland) upon ascending to the Polish throne. An undated 1/2 Ducat commemorating his coronation was issued in 1697.

1jester · February 6, 2003 4:36AM

Thanks for the additional input, Askari. Being far from an expert, I can't contest your beliefs that it wasn't minted in Leipzig. It was, however, listed in the auction catalog as having been minted there. Is it possible that Master Holland went to Leipzig to mint it? Perhaps the auction catalog has it wrong. But why would it have been minted in Chemnitz?? That seems even more improbable.

It was not struck using Thaler dies, as it is only 12.5 mm in diameter. It is, for the record, a quarter ducat, weighing in at 0.86 grams.

Here are some further references. A. Friedberg, "Gold Coins of the World", Clifton, 1992. (Fr. 2785),
and "Otto Merseberger's Collection of Coins and Medals from Saxony", Albertinische und Ernestinische Linie Berlin, 1983 (in German), (Merseb. 1428).

Thanks all for your wonderful participation. I have learned a lot!

Askari · February 6, 2003 11:49AM

If I remember correctly, Chemnitz was a center for striking talers for Saxony. If it had been struck with taler dies, then it would make since. Why a subordinate mintmaster's design would be struck in Leipzig, where there was a perfectly good mintmaster to do the same is puzzling.

1jester · September 22, 2004 1:59AM

ttt

MacCrimmon · September 22, 2004 2:34AM

I just sold one like to a beggarman for $3......did I sell it too cheeeeep?

Jester's Challenge #4

Comments