Psa holder concerns

Wayne8348 · February 3, 2003 12:08PM

Now that we know what happened with WIWAG, is anyone else concerned about the safety of cards in a psa holder? We now know it's possible to switch cards and perhaps the next person to do so won't be so dumb as to switch out numbered cards. I sure hope PSA is looking into redesigning their holder so it can't be resealed. How can anyone have confidence in their cards being the correct grade if the holders are not tamperproof? Any thoughts?

Wayne

Basilone · February 3, 2003 12:26PM

One of the main reasons the Bonzi card was suspicious was because of the serial numbering. I do not know about you guys but who here thinks WIWAG are the only ones?

PSA really needs to change holders...and fast. This time they will have the collecting community behind them...a year ago...many would of complained because it may force them to reholder their entire collections.

John

theBobs · February 3, 2003 12:39PM

I would feel alot better if I had some guidance from PSA -- what to look for on the slab, what types of cards, years, grades to look for... To quote Dr Evil -- "Throw me a friggin bone here"

rustywilly · February 3, 2003 2:09PM

a bone...hell, I'll take a nibble off a tiny biscuit! The article "Card Fraud Update" on their main page raises more questions than it answers.

-mark

theBobs · February 4, 2003 12:37PM

Before WIWAG, no worries about this scan. Now, no bid...

pc · February 4, 2003 12:50PM

<< <i>Now that we know what happened with WIWAG, is anyone else concerned about the safety of cards in a psa holder? We now know it's possible to switch cards and perhaps the next person to do so won't be so dumb as to switch out numbered cards. I sure hope PSA is looking into redesigning their holder so it can't be resealed. How can anyone have confidence in their cards being the correct grade if the holders are not tamperproof? Any thoughts?

Wayne >>

yes wayne i have thoughts.i believe you wish to repurchase
your 1965 set by yelling "fire" in a croded theatre.if not then
welcome back from the coma.question for you,why do i feel the fears you are mentioning,confidence in PSA and safety of their holders
seems nothing more than a pat on the back for having sold your
65 set before this development?.outside of these message boards
i dont think anyone cares about wiwag,the aforementioned fears
or plastic holder designs.nothing personal just an observation.

Basilone · February 4, 2003 1:22PM

Yep...Wayne is so glad he got out of the 1965's especially with WIWAG...so much so.....that in the course of a few months he has bought a good portion of the 1974 set in PSA 9's and just started a 1967 set.

Wayne's 1974 Topps 9.06 61.13% 5.33

John

downgoesfrazier · February 4, 2003 1:56PM

Regarding the WIWAG scandalllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll sorry, just went to sleep on my keyboard. As for the holder, I just think it's ugly. I suppose a solid blackened graphite shell specifically designed to shatter upon release of air pressure for a mere 75 dollar grading fee would be allright, I guess. How about one the screams a verbal message upon opening like "Dude, you're about to do something illegal here, are you prepared for the consequences of being a scumbag?" How about in addition to PSA/DNA they launch PSA/ADT--security systems for your holers. In just an instant your PSA response team will be alerted to the possibility that you are a scumbag. There will always be these people out there. Banks spend millions in security only to become a statistic...as for what to look for...I guess glue would be a start...keep in mind if you see Don Nottebart's card with a flip that reads 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson PSA 8--be sure to bid accordingly.

Wayne8348 · February 4, 2003 9:15PM

pc,

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed or are you just trying to be a jerk? I've put most of the money from my 65 set back into psa graded cards and I haven't bought any more or any less since the wiwag news broke. Am I yelling fire trying to drive down prices - ABSOLUTELY NOT! That would only hurt myself as I have a substantial investment in my collection. You attack my integrity and then finish up your statement with "nothing personal".

Let me phrase this a little bit clearer. If the psa holder is easily compromised and cards can be switched then all of us are at risk!!! If we can't have confidence that the enclosed cards are the ones that were actually graded then the grading system is worthless!!! How that relates to me selling my 65 set - I have no clue. Get a life. I'm not that concerned about wiwag but I don't want to see it happening next week by another crooked dealer and then another next month. I'm just looking for safeguards so the whole system isn't compromised. You really know how to piss someone off first thing in the morning. Have a great day pc.

Wayne

acowa · February 4, 2003 10:30PM

Wayne,

I always love the <nothing personal just an observation> Then you read the commentary and it's 100% personal. I have found that most times when a statement is preceded by an explanation of purpose like "I'm not trying to" ... "My intent is not to" ... the person usually does the exact opposite.

Once a post begins with <yes wayne>, ... if your intent is not to personally flame someone...then you might consider PM or email.

Regards,

Alan

waitilltheytrytosell · February 4, 2003 10:47PM

I don't see anything wrong with the design of PSA's holders. When the seal is broken there are obvious indications that the integrity of the seal has been compromised. If you care, you look. For any security feature to work, it requires participation by the people buying and selling the product. People not bothering to look or question an abnormality is why something like wiwag can happen. No holder can be made safe enough for these people.

zardoz51 · February 4, 2003 11:00PM

It sure helps to look at the card.

Basilone · February 4, 2003 11:01PM

I wish they would use some sort of black plastic around the card. There is a reason why most people scan with the lid up or use black construction paper as a background.

John

dude · February 4, 2003 11:22PM

So far, I've only seen one possible example of a WIWAG tampered card and that was a 1966 Willie Mays that was shown on the other CU Message Board. The tampering looked very obvious on that one. Perhaps if there are any of you who are planning to send WIWAG cards back for review, you should scan them first so that we can see how good or bad of a job they did after finding out the results. If they are all similar to the Mays, I'm not concerned at all.

One of my biggest pet peeves has been eBay sellers that don't accept returns and don't state it in the auction text that they don't accept returns on graded cards. They and others argue that PSA will buy back the card. However, if they are unloading a WIWAG tampered card that has passed through several hands, PSA will not buy it back and it may not be traceable back to WIWAG. I really wish eBay would make it mandatory for all sellers who don't accept returns, to state "no returns" in their description.

waitilltheytrytosell · February 5, 2003 12:06AM

"No Returns" does not apply to somebody selling a bogus card/holder. That type of purchase has nothing to do with you not being satisfied, it is fraud. No returns in my opinion is a very good policy for normal auctions. It encourages bidders to ask questions if they have unreasonable expectations. Nothing blows worse than having a lunatic looking for 9's in 8 holders screw up your auction for a card that everyone else would have been happy with. You end up looking like a crook when you have to auction the card again a few weeks later.

Basilone · February 5, 2003 12:16AM

I agree with WaitTill....there are those bidders who want to beat the system. Now the rules are different if the bidder does not include a scan, then I think it is fair to ask for a refund ( a 9OC sitting in a 8 holder). If the auction includes a scan then worst case scenario is that the buyer relists the card on eBay. The seller should also show some responsiblity and not claim "very high end 8" or "should of been a 9"...those statements lead to problems like Waittill mentioned.

John

gemint · February 5, 2003 1:47AM

<< <i>I don't see anything wrong with the design of PSA's holders. When the seal is broken there are obvious indications that the integrity of the seal has been compromised. If you care, you look. For any security feature to work, it requires participation by the people buying and selling the product. People not bothering to look or question an abnormality is why something like wiwag can happen. No holder can be made safe enough for these people. >>

Though I agree that the tampered holder shows the evidence, I think it would be easier to see (especially in a scan) if the outer "lip" of the holder was not textured to begin with. It goes from textured, "hazy" to textured "milky white" after being cracked. Though the difference is discernible, the contrast could be better.

waitilltheytrytosell · February 5, 2003 3:02AM

gemint - The quality of the scan would have to be pretty good then. If a guy knew he was selling you a bogus card/holder he could put up either a poor quality scan, or a scan altered to display no signs of tampering. Thebobs concern with the item above - Before WIWAG, no worries about this scan. Now, no bid... is with the seller's cropping of the scan to save size/space/loading time. It is very common to see scans cropped like this. You can post a higher quality scan of the card but with a cropped holder, or a lower quality scan with an uncropped holder, and both will take up about the same space. The lower quality scan probably won't show you what you need to see in the holder. Higher quality uncropped scans will take up more of the space that many people have to work with.

pc · February 5, 2003 3:26AM

Wayne-nothing personal means nothing personal.

dude · February 5, 2003 3:46AM

waitilltheytrytosell,

I'm not so much against a No Return Policy in itself. I'm against a seller with a No Return Policy that isn't stated in the description. I know several reputable sellers that have a No Return Policy, but at least they state it in the auction and show a large scan. At least knowing that, I'll either ask more questions or bid more conservatively - depending on how bad I want the card. Also, I'm sure it's naive to think that all people who bought WIWAG's bad cards kept them. I'm sure some realized at some point that this card is overgraded, but didn't know it was because the card was switched and the easiest thing to do was just to re-sell it. If I buy that card from that person, he's really no more of a crook than a guy who sells an overgraded card that came straight from the grading company.

gemint · February 5, 2003 4:11AM

waitilltheytrytosell,

I agree. In fact, any tampering can be hidden by the scan via cropping or touch-ups. My comment was more based on when you physically inspect the card. I think some people who don't carefully inspect the holder could miss the fact that it has been cracked, especially if they aren't familiar with how it normally should look. If the contrast between cracked and uncracked holders were better, it would be easier to see the damage. I think it could be solved simply by changing to a smooth surface on the lip.

Wayne8348 · February 5, 2003 5:53AM

Dan,

I agree with you about the no return policy. You make a good point.

pc,

You're being a jerk.

wayne

by the way - nothing personal!

D

GeorgePatton · February 5, 2003 10:31AM

PC,

ARE YOU INSANE??? YOU MUST BE TOTALLY CLUELESS TO MAKE A BRUTAL PERSONAL ATTACK AND THEN THINK YOU MAKE IT O.K. WITH YOUR NOTHING PERSONAL NONSENSE.

NOTHING PERSONAL, BUT YOU'RE THE BIGGEST MORON THIS SIDE OF JOESTALIN. AGAIN, NOTHING PERSONAL.

GP

Wayne8348 · February 5, 2003 10:44AM

Thanks GeorgePatton - you're my kind of general!

Wayne

pc · February 5, 2003 12:34PM

<< <i>PC,

ARE YOU INSANE??? YOU MUST BE TOTALLY CLUELESS TO MAKE A BRUTAL PERSONAL ATTACK AND THEN THINK YOU MAKE IT O.K. WITH YOUR NOTHING PERSONAL NONSENSE.

NOTHING PERSONAL, BUT YOU'RE THE BIGGEST MORON THIS SIDE OF JOESTALIN. AGAIN, NOTHING PERSONAL.

GP >>

gp-your mother

theBobs · February 5, 2003 12:48PM

Sometimes I wonder if people on this board allow their own children to read their posts....

Wayne8348 · February 5, 2003 9:28PM

thebobs,

I honestly feel bad about what I posted. I should have just left it alone. There are so many great people on this board and even when we disagree with each other we are all typically respectful of others opinions and don't take things to a personal level. I'm very appreciative of all of the friends I have on this board.

pc,

Even though you were dead wrong in your comments I do apologize for coming back at you in the manor that I did.

Wayne

GeorgePatton · February 5, 2003 10:28PM

<gp-your mother>

PC

Should I take this personally? Don't you mean "GP - nothing personal but - your mother"?

downgoesfrazier · February 5, 2003 11:54PM

Where's the Love? Let's not let common courtesy and human descency and reason get in the way of a good honest hatred.

Psa holder concerns

Comments