Tongue in Cheek and a bit Cynical, yet Logical.
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
If you've spent any time wondering, and a moment is really too long, why classic collectors seem to wring their hands in agony over the downfall of new and not-so-new collectors concerned with modern coinage, it's rather simple to understand. Oh, and logical to boot. For the record, I enjoy the best of both worlds, moderns by series and classics by type, but back to the point. It's all about dollars, or rather, dollars lost.
Here's the twist. In an already competitive collector environment, it makes sense to me that when chasing tough to locate dates/grades I'm not going to be inviting others to compete with me, though I may encourage others in hopes of growing a market. From that standpoint, collectors with no stake or interest in modern issues would be foolish wanting all newbies to collect classic coins unless they could stand to profit. Enough already with the shallow let-me-mentor-you-and-help-you-avoid-my-mistakes rant. For each collector who spouts that, there is probably another who could or does encourage collecting in modern issues.
Most people have agendas. What's yours and why are you reading this post? Don't reply unless you have a constructive thought to help educate misguided collectors of modern trash as to why you know how/why/what to collect.
Boo-Hoo-Hoo to any toes i stepped on. Collectors are so sensitive.
Maybe we need a 1-800 help line.
Al H.
Here's the twist. In an already competitive collector environment, it makes sense to me that when chasing tough to locate dates/grades I'm not going to be inviting others to compete with me, though I may encourage others in hopes of growing a market. From that standpoint, collectors with no stake or interest in modern issues would be foolish wanting all newbies to collect classic coins unless they could stand to profit. Enough already with the shallow let-me-mentor-you-and-help-you-avoid-my-mistakes rant. For each collector who spouts that, there is probably another who could or does encourage collecting in modern issues.
Most people have agendas. What's yours and why are you reading this post? Don't reply unless you have a constructive thought to help educate misguided collectors of modern trash as to why you know how/why/what to collect.
Boo-Hoo-Hoo to any toes i stepped on. Collectors are so sensitive.
Maybe we need a 1-800 help line.Al H.
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Comments
Please forward number to me immediately. Thanks mdwoods
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Most people have agendas. What's yours >>
Fun.
Russ, NCNE
the complete domination of the world, MMWHAA, MWHAAA
al h.
al h.
K S
Can't one be both? And aren't the 2 intertwined to a great degree? mdwoods
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
more economic damage than it could ever do the modern collectors. Classic
collectors think of a pie being divided in only so many pieces- - the more pieces
that go to modern collectors the fewer there are for classic collectors. This sim-
ply isn't the way the world works. When a modern doubles in value a few
times it becomes worth more money. That's right, more money. The owner
now has more wealth. With this wealth he can go out for a night on the town,
buy more moderns, purchase a hernia belt to help him carry his money to the
bank, or even purchase some classics. Whatever he does it's still wealth and the
coin will maintain this value so long as there is a balance between the number
of people buying the coin and the number selling. Many moderns have no such
balance hence the increases in price.
If you must think of the amount of money available to purchase coins as a pie, then
think of it as a pie that's growing even faster than the bubble you percieve in mod-
erns.
If you interfere with the growth of the pie it is the older series with there rapid loss
of collectors which will suffer most, it will not be moderns which have a much younger
and more vibrant collector base.
So suit yourselves, go ahead and bash moderns, confident in the knowledge that you'll
each get an increasingly larger share of a rapidly imploding pie.
K S
AT, doctoring, and myriad other pitfalls in the hobby, that even more people be-
come leary of expanding their collections back to the older series.
When doubt is cast on the coins AND the grading services people will try to stay
with what doesn't need to be slabbed like a 1996 mint set. Since they are col-
lecting them anyway they just migh go ahead and get a few slabbed someday.
Thank goodness for that PM function.
jom
<< <i>Yeah, and when the doctors start complaining about running out of "classic" coins to whizz or AT the first thing they'll go to are 1996 mint sets. That way they can AT it, make it look as if it's been in an album for 15 years and slab it in a 69 holder.
jom >>
Indeed. Time does fly!
grammar
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Secondly, most people are complicated and "anti-modern" folks may have several objectives, not just one.
One objective may be to feel good about themselves by being helpful - like keeping a child from wandering into traffic. The non-altruistic aspect to that is that we all want to feel good about ourselves and helping someone convinces us that we are good.
Another may be the confirmation of our own interests. If a fellow comes to collecting and rejects moderns for classics, the anti-modern guy might feel affirmed - both he and the newbie agree that classics are better than moderns.
Another reason with regard to why some dealers in classics are anti-modern is that they want more buyers for their goods. If a guy spends 10k on moderns, its 10k he doesn't spend on classics.
I'm "anti-modern", generally speaking, because i like the way i feel when i help people by steering them into classics.
One final group of thoughts. Moderns are cool (not as cool as classics, in my opinion) but more importantly, cheap. Not everyone can afford coins that cost thousands of dollars. (And some people just crave perfection, and perfection is cheap with moderns and excruciatingly expense with classics.) And moderns are probably bound to get cheaper still. As long as that is known by the person buying moderns, then all is well.
Coins can be just a hobby and most hobbies are black holes for money. Buying moderns may just be another one of them. Nothing wrong with that. If you want to spend your money on a hobby, go for it. If you can develop an interest in classic coinage and it can gratify you like modern coinage, I say all the better.
adrian
You are hereby awarded one of bears coveted "GROWL OF APPROVAL AWARDS" for
writing a thought inspiring and well written piece. Bear
Camelot
<< <i>Wow, you posted the same response to at least 3 different threads about numismatist and numisplastists. That really shows a lot of original thought. OKAY WE GET IT. You made a clever remark. Shall I publish an ad in my local paper for you? Grow up DORK. mdwoods >>
why?
K S
Good point DK! Peace.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
1st, believe me, i am NOT at all condemning what anyone has chosen to collect!!! i just am not! what i am trying to do is to provide a reason, an explanation, for the apparent conflict that some are saying is "classic coins" vs. "modern coins". & i'm trying to base the explanation by defining my basis for argument.
the notion that i am proposing is that there are 2 distinct hobbies at play in the market place, & both are legitimate hobbies.
(1) numismatics - study & collecting of coins strictly by virtue of 2d-hand grades (ie. what you the collector grade a coin, regardless of what anyone else says)
(2) numis-plastics - collection of slabs strictly by virtue of grades assigned by a 3d party
NEITHER hobby is "illegitimate" or to be condemned. but the argument seems to arise when 1 party sees the other as "taking away" from it in some way. ie, the classics guys think the plastics guys are pulling money out of classics by spending "too much" on slabs, for example.
what i meant when i said "you don't want to make the effort to think about it." is that at 1st glance, it might seem that claiming there are 2 distinct hobbies clouds the issue. i think that in fact, it may help simplify things.
now, if a classics guy (myself) says "you are buying it just for the number on the slab", you can see that this is NOT an insult, because that is what numis-plastics is!
understand that ultimately, barring covert activities, there really is no such thing as "overvalued" or "undervalued" in the free market. i do not need to see your ms69 red lincoln to know whether it was overvalued at $275. you were willing to pay that price, therefore, that IS it's value - TO YOU. i guess in a sense, i wouldn't have to see or grade any of your coins to know whether it was under- or over-valued. "value", other than face-value (or bullion value) is not inherent to a coin, it is determined strictly by the purchaser.
so let's put aside right now the negativity that stems from accusations that "you paid too much" or " i would never pay that much for it", because i personally have chosen not to participate in numis-plastics.
maybe this clears up a little of the dustcloud that i have apparently stirred up?
finally, let's get something straight. i do not, not in the slightest, condemn slabing of coins. what i DO condemn is mistruths & misleading statements that make slabing out to be more than it really is. YES, i am sorry to say, slabing can be used to take advantage of newbies. the more things change, the more they stay the same, & those more savvy will always find a way to take advantage of the less informed.
a slabed coin is nothing more than a coin encapsulated by a corporation, along with a guarantee of authenticity & an opinion as to its grade, as well as a guarantee that the coin has not been overgraded. it does NOT offer an "unbiased opinion", it does NOT guarantee against undergrading, it does NOT add value to the coin, it does NOT guarantee unwavering stability of the opinion, etc.
K S
quite simply, it just occurs plain and simple that most attempts to dissuade from collecting in a certain segment of the hobby, though well intentioned on the surface, are in fact self-serving to at least some degree if the layers are pulled back some. the gist of my posting the thread is that it almost universally, here at least, seems to be collectors of classic coinage cautioning reasoning adults about moderns and again, almost universally, never vice-versa. i just find that intriguing and my opinion is reflected in this thread starter.
sure would be nice to hear from the dissuaders no matter what there agenda may be. as i said, i collect in both areas so this is all just information gathering for a curious mind that wants to know. take off the blinders guys, 'fess up with some truth and climb out of lock step, if for only a moment.
sign me opinionteller!!!! yuk, yuk.
al h.
Sincerely,
jadecoin
al h.
I am a classic collector but I don't have an agenda in the way you described in your OP. I don't like to see decent people get screwed.
For this reason, I'm as uncomfortable with someone paying 3 of 4 times the money for, say, a 36 S Walker in a 7 holder than what he'd pay for a really nice 6 as I am in a similar regard re someone paying this multiple for a modern in an 8 holder versus a nice 7.
For me, it's a matter of getting value for your $, and whatever you want to collect, so be it. Depending on the particular series, I just don't see the value in the one point upgrade in the higher echelons of Unc. for a large $ multiple over the one just below it. From my perspective, I am not a Registry Set fan at all.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Also, since we're being cynical, yet logical, it seems to me that there are quite a few here who have a large inherent lack of deference to authority. If this is the case, any strong, direct advice may have an opposite effect....
...just a thought.
<< <i>not getting my point across very well. >>
Uh, Karl, you get your point across just fine.
<< <i>now, if a classics guy (myself) says "you are buying it just for the number on the slab" >>
Question for you Karl.
Did I buy this one just for the number on the slab? The number is pretty low for a modern.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Question for you Karl. Did I buy this one just for the number on the slab? The number is pretty low for a modern. >>
litmust test for this question: do you intend to evaluate the coin sight-seen for potential inclusion in a collection? therein lies the answer.
to be honest, my proposal of the 2 separate hobbies is a new proposal that has not been tested. actually russ, upon receipt of the coin, if you would be so kind as to share the experience, it will be most beneficial to testing out this theory.
K S
<< <i>do you intend to evaluate the coin sight-seen for potential inclusion in a collection? therein lies the answer. >>
Not for inclusion in my collection.
Russ, NCNE
If there's anyone around here with an agenda it is I. Obviously this has been proven
time and again in the past and is likely to continue. I would never even consider telling
someone not to collect classics, I'd rather cut off a finger. Yes, I believe there are many
pitfalls in the classics including some high flyers that are likely to fall as people's interests
change in the future. Sure, on average they are more secure in their prices than are the
moderns, but what gain is there to me to tell someone classics are crap, or all classics were
saved in huge quantity because they were silver. I could go on, but I'm sure you see the
point.
Not only don't I slam classics but no one else does either. Do you believe it's inherently
more logical to pay $40,000 for thirty cents worth of silver dime than to pay $40,000 for
a penny's worth of copper in a cent. Do you believe a $100,000 classic in a slab has less
downside than a $1,000 modern?
There's more to it than just wanting to be on the winning side or getting a larger share of
the pie.
Anytime someone pays more than face value or melt for a coin we're all winners and the
pie grows just that much larger.
not trying to cop out, but what i have come up with is that speculative purchasing does not fall under either category. ie., i am proposing that the categories of "numismatics" & "numis-plastics" are only applied to collectors. i spent some time yesterday evening pondering your question, trying to figure out if it makes sense to categorize purchases w/ intent to profit in either way, & i don't think it does.
i appreciate the depth of your question!
K S
Since most of us agree that collecting coins is a poor way to invest your money, we spend time justifying what we spend to entertain ourselves.
Keets (and the rest of the board members):
Collect what you like, it is your money and your hobby. No one should try to convince you that your tastes are less than theirs.
On the other hand , if someone wishes to discus the merits of dollar appreciation of one series over the other, all is fair game. I collect some series because they are interesting but not in vogue. These series (i.e. 3CS and 3CN) are thus more affordable.
<< <i>but what i have come up with is that speculative purchasing does not fall under either category >>
Karl,
You one sharp cookie.
If I get it upgraded, I flip it for a tidy profit (done this a several times with the SMS coins). At worst, it doesn't upgrade and I still have a coin that's tough in cameo and worth at least what I paid.
Russ, NCNE
ain't the free-market system just the greatest?
i hope the value of keets's thread is not lost, so .... ttt
K S
there's all types: there's those what only wants a certain type of coin, there's others who want every dam coin ever made, and there's everyone in between, with all their varied interests. some likes, in fact demands perfection, others just love the feel of a well worn 180 year old coin.
my agenda? to build a high quality and meaningful collection, and learn about numismatics in the process. I have a type set, 1797-present, and some completed and partial modern series, and, as usual for a collector, my newer coins are higher grade and my older ones are lower grade, because that is the condition i "choose" to Afford. As my endevor progresses, my coins get nicer, and my duplicates and upgrades get sold.
I personally think moderns are perfectly fine in MS and PF 65 and 66, and would rather spend the premium that it takes to get to 67 or 68 on something else... like a draped bust dime in Very good.
The fact that someone can "afford" an ike dollar in MS 68 or a 1795 eagle in AU is of no consequence to me right now, as I am not in the market for those coins at present. If I were, I would probably neither hype or bash them, but simply acquire them at a cost i considered reasonable.
I would try to warn anyone against irrational spending behavior in their collecting, investing, or anything else, but it's difficult to do because, frankly, I wouldn't pay 1/10 of the prices quoted on antiques road show for some of that junk, yet apparently it's worth that much to somebody.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I'm a convert from an 'accumulator' to a 'collector', and as such I'm a buyer now, having never sold a thing I bought, though I have a 100 or so I'm taking to a local show in two weeks to see if I can peddle.
I buy both moderns (commems mostly), and classics (mostly morgans and buffalos) but have two type collections in progress, and really prefer the classics.
I have a single slab, and dislike it not for the grade, but for the plastic. Just the way I am now and I may change as I mature.
I know that most dealers collect in some manner or another, and follow a calling of their own that seems separate from the nondealer collector.
I like the handling of the coin, the feel of the body heat from the silver and gold, and the ring of the noble metal. The moderns and the classics both have the history I find most appealing with some recent and some remote. Tonight I explained to my daughter the N.O.W. and the SBA dollar, and why they didn't use a younger woman's image for the portrait of the ugliest coin in recent memory, but it is a favorite of mine for the history.
I'm just captured by the fascination of those coins I'm drawn to, for whatever reason. Just gel'ing the accumulation to a directed collection has been a major step for me.
I think an on-line 12-step program for the addiction to The Hobby would be timely !!
<< <i>why they didn't use a younger woman's image for the portrait of the ugliest coin in recent memory >>
Second ugliest.
The SBA was unseated for top honors when that one came out.
Russ, NCNE
I have seen a silver round of Suzie at a chalkboard when she was (considerably) younger. Nice looking, thin woman with shoulder-length hair.
I've read that she toured on a lecture circuit promoting women's rights in her day, and was challenged by an orator prior to the Civil War who spoke on slavery. She was challenged as to her ability to speak as an 'emanicipated woman', espousing the rights of women to own property and vote, when she hadn't been able to experience either.
Her response was that the orator was preaching about slavery without having experienced it, either.
Ah, the History !