Thread edited: Fundamental debate about third party grading's effect on modern commems.
wingedliberty
Posts: 4,805 ✭✭✭
I guess die state, strike, luster, and contrast; mean nothing when evaluating a grade.
WOW!!!!, I guess we should just assign an MS60 to everything and be done with it.
This is the most amazing thing that I have ever heard. I guess all the registry coins are just uncs.
Why should we care about quality.
Brian.
WOW!!!!, I guess we should just assign an MS60 to everything and be done with it.
This is the most amazing thing that I have ever heard. I guess all the registry coins are just uncs.
Why should we care about quality.
Brian.
0
Comments
TRUTH
that a true modern collectors should not care about grade??? How can someone make such a statement?
Brian.
TRUTH
jom
PS: Childish retort: Wah! I broke my slab...!
<< <i> An MS60 coin is worth a tad less than a MS70 coin, modern commems, out of the holder. You place a value on the PCGS holder, plain and simple. I do not. As least not for modern commems. So there you have it, a synopsis of my reasoning.
TRUTH >>
Of course such reasoning begs the question, "Do you have any 1963 cents worth just a tad more?"
I'm sure I can give you a price that will at least double your money on it. You're in business to make
a profit so just name what you want for those coins you have that are worth just a tad more.
spelling
Done deal. I'll sell you 1000 rolls of BU 1963 lincoln 1C at roll ask, just a 'tad' over bid. Shipping is extra. You can pick out the MS70 quality ones. Well, do we have a deal?
TRUTH
Deal is invoiced at $650, 1963 1C roll ask. Shipping is about $15 plus insurance. Please PM me to confirm and I'll give you my mailing adress to where to send the check. Time frame should be about 2 weeks.
TRUTH
Let me pose these questions to you:
1. Is there a difference between a Buffalo commemorative dollar that is in its early die state and
is one of the first coins to be struck from a particular die, which displays a very strong strike and incredible luster and a Buffalo dollar that is one of the last to be struck from a die, has average luster,
and a mushy strike, and has been mishandled at the mint and has a few minor nicks?.
2. Are you saying that just because the mint placed a modern commen in one of their capsules,
that it means that its a flawless coin?
3. Are you saying that PCGS cannot tell the difference in grade between the two coins mentioned
above and sophisticated collectors cannot determine value for themselves between the two coins
mentioned above and that that value cannot be a function of grade?
Brian.
Answers
1) Yes, there is a difference. Mushy strikes are less desireable than well struck specimens.
2) By today's mint quality control, a very small percentage of US mint modern commems are of grades lower that MS66 or PF66, using modern grading. And I have yet to see a circulated modern commem.
3) PCGS gives an opinion on modern grading. Since there is no established guidelines anywhere to the grading of modern commems, whether in book or precident, PCGS is merely grading modern proofs and BU's in a very haphazzard fashion. With sheldon grading, at least classic coin grading is established over time and tradition. Not so with moderns. There are no reference guidelines to differentiate an MS66 from an MS67, 68, 69. Pure guesswork on PCGS's part. In fact, 10 years ago, NGC would not grade ANY modern coin for that reason. Thus, a modern coin from the mint cannot be traded for MS69 or 70 money, UNLESS it's in a holder. If true collectors paid $1000 for a raw MS70 coin, then I would change my perspective. I have yet to know of a single instance were a BU raw modern commem has traded RAW for that kind of money. Thus, a sophisticated collector should be capable of paying $1000 for a raw modern, but it just doesn't happen. I pay $1000's for a raw classic commem, shouldn't it follow for moderns?
TRUTH
<< <i>When coin collecting was established before bluesheets and slabbing, there were two US standards for grading uncirculated coins. UNC(BU) and Choice. >>
That was some time ago...the hobby has (thank goodness) evolved since the "good old horse and buggy days".
<< <i>Gem came along later as for a coin with exceptional standards. >>
The Model "T" could outrun the horse and buggy any day of the week.
<< <i> History teaches us that coins were bought and sold for beauty and esthetic value, pleasing to the eye as well as rarity. Not until the mid 1970's did the condition become one of substantial value for inbetween grades, such as MS63, 64,65 and so on. >>
Nicer coins always have commanded a premium.
<< <i> A coin collector would buy US mint products to keep as new, with no intention of having value associated with grade. >>
Some collectors would.
<< <i>Thus, the 11 point grading scheme came into effect, essentially giving rise to incremental values of a coin's worth, which, I feel, is totally subjective and dependent on who the owner of the coin is, versus the seller >>
Thus the third party grading system to eliminate 95% of subjectivity.
<< <i>You place a value on the PCGS holder, plain and simple. I do not >>
Fine...Buy and collect strictly raw coins.
<< <i>I pay $1000's for a raw classic commem, shouldn't it follow for moderns? >>
I don't pay thousands for raw coins. To many novice collectors have been taken to the cleaners.
because you are not aware of it, it does not mean that it has not happened. Just because a
particular segment of the market is in its infancy, does not mean that it is an artificial market or any less
legitimate. I agree that PCGS and NGC both have created the standards from 67-70. , but why is that
not good? I think its great! I have paid substantial premiums for raw commems, some have come back
as 70s. My friends have done the same. If PCGS/NGC have helped us to set these standards, then
I thank them, if they are helping to develop a market that is quality driven, then I think its great. I think
it boils down to a fundamental disagreement as to whether grading services are helping drive this, If you think thats a bad idea?, then thats were the polarization is at. Its just a fundamental disagreement
on how this market is developing.
Brian.
this is related to my assertion of a while back where i claim there are 2 different & separate endeavors here, that of numismatics, & that of numis-plastics.
K S
participate on a forum that is part of the worlds largest grading service. I find that funny.
Brian.
<< <i>Is there a difference between a Buffalo commemorative dollar that is in its early die state and
is one of the first coins to be struck from a particular die, which displays a very strong strike and incredible luster >>
dude, fundamental error in your question. an early die-state tends to have POORER luster than a later die-state.
<< <i>It is obvious that certain members hate third party grading and hate slabs. What is ironic, is that they
participate on a forum that is part of the worlds largest grading service. I find that funny. >>
well, it must not be nearly as obvious as you claim. i do not hate 3d party grading, in fact i couldn't care less about it. what i hate is blindness to anything except 3d party grading. the real irony is that those who think 3d party grading is so wonderful are so often the same folks who are clueless how to grade. (irony being, if you are clueless how to grade, then why is the grade so important?)
K S
the PCGS grading guide, Photograde, looking at thousands of slabs, and talking to PCGS and NGC
graders, certain collectors demand a level of quality that is natural with developing as a collector and
a natural process of growth. Others choose to embrace the old grading standards because they are
convenient and easy.
Brian.
There is a fundamental philosophy which I have elaborated on many a thread, "if you can't pay the hundreds of dollars for a coin out of the holder, why pay for it in a holder?" The fundamental aspects of grading are key. You must be confident enough to buy an MS69 anything in or out of a holder. It just makes sense. I say that for moderns, and classics. The stigma attached to the holder induces collectors to pay more. In fact, many collectors today WILL NOT buy a coin unless slabbed. That tells me, they have no confidence in their own abilities to grade, or attribute. Again, the "dumbing down" of the hobby, whereby collectors are now dependent on third party grading. The hobby has been seduced into the idea that the holder makes the coin valuable. How can that be? Does the wrapper make the candy taste better, does the can make the tuna smell good? How can a holder make a coin more valuable? It's a very sophisticated illusion that will one day collapse, along with value, along with collector confidence. Mind you, this relates to value, not attribution, authenticity or more generally accepted points related to the coin. I truly don't expect the grading services to be around in 30 years, thus, a coin must stand on it's own merits, like they have done before slabbing and since coin collecting began decades ago.
TRUTH
I guess with your statement "I don't truly expect the grading services to be around in 30 years",
that concludes our debate. Thank you for a spirited and fun debate.
Brian.
<< <i>Cladking,
Deal is invoiced at $650, 1963 1C roll ask. Shipping is about $15 plus insurance. Please PM me to confirm and I'll give you my mailing adress to where to send the check. Time frame should be about 2 weeks.
TRUTH >>
If you can gaurantee that one of these is worth a tad more than certainly
go ahead and ship. In fact I can use virtually any MS-70 or PF-70 for just
a tad more and I can use them in quantity. In fact just send me the 70's
at the same price and you can keep the rest.
at CDN bid. This should net you a great deal of business. You'll of course have to accept all
the MS-65's which are shipped. It would be dishonest to return anything that is low-end 65
or doesn't meet some arbitrary standard. You'll soon be the biggest coin buyer in the country.
You're missing the point here. People are collecting these coins raw. Where do you think this
demand is coming from? After 35 years of being ignored people are collecting moderns. Many
are collecting them from circulation and some are collecting from singles, sets, and rolls. A few
are collecting them in slabs in high grade. These are probably those who are ahead of the curve.
They have discovered that the coins are difficult to find in high grade and they are attempting to
put together sets now. There are myriad reasons people collect moderns but they closely parallel
the reasons that people collect the classics. Yes there are differences between the classics and
the moderns but most of these differences greatly favor the moderns. Sliders, whizzed, altered,
counterfeit, and doctored coins are all very rare in moderns. The classic collectors' constant warn-
ings about the pitfalls of numismatics continue to drive newbies to the moderns and away from
classics. In this world of constant warnings it's little wonder that moderns keep getting hotter.
What is a wonder is that all these people are not driven away altogether. People are not going to
quit collecting coins because some can't understand their attraction.
I just don't agree with you. Moderns don't circulate, their values are based on guesses. They don't trade well, only on ebay and in auction, no dealer will post a trading bid on more than 1 or 2. Moderns are not easily sold at the nearest shop. BTW, I guarantee more than half of the 1963 lincolns will grade MS70, my standards of course. And I guarantee to buy back the deal at 80% of greysheet bid. How is that! I don't think any dealer can top that spread! Frankly, missing the point is obvious, you don't agree with me and visa versa.
TRUTH
<< <i>Moderns don't circulate, their values are based on guesses. They don't trade well, only on ebay and in auction, no dealer will post a trading bid on more than 1 or 2. Moderns are not easily sold at the nearest shop. >>
There are some 200 billion moderns in circulation. Values are mostly guesses because
the market is young. Coin World has added the coins to trends but it will still take some
time for all these prices to shake down and reflect the real world accurately.
They don't trade very widely or at the local shop because demand is still very small. This
does give them lots of room for growth though.
If I bought the '63 cents we'd likely both have a story to tell. -better pass. But thanks!
pcgs has been making more ms/pf 70 coins as of late
send in those coins!
sincerely michael
An interesting thing about certifying coins is the fact that when there is a 10X, 20X or 100X price jump between grades, many coins are submitted multiple times until it hits the jackpot of all grades PR70 or MS70 or the top pop for that date. With no regards to the 68's and 69's grades that this coin had garnished in the previous attempts, it's now a very valuable coin and that’s what everybody is up in arms about and there is a lot of money involved. Who would be crazy enough to resubmit a MS, PR70 or top pop coin worth thousands and risk it dropping back a grade. For moderns, it’s nothing to pay $50 for 5 once-overs if that coin stands a chance at hitting it big. Would you spend your big bucks on a coin if you knew it was a 1 out of 3 or 4 or 5 submitted top pop coin? I’d sure like to see the 2-3 top registry sets in any series entirely cracked out and resubmitted. LOL
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>Why should we care about quality >>
a rather absurd question that ignores the issue. the real issue is: why should a large corporation (pcgs, ngc) determine for YOU what is quality & what is not. why shouldn't YOU be the one to determine what equates quality?
K S
What shipper do you use? I can't get anywhere close to $15 for 320 pounds, even across town.
WH