Pics attached - Toned Buffalo! (Orig title: Coin dealer changing a price)

Blade · January 30, 2003 7:17AM

Need an opinion on this - a deal I am working today.

2 weeks ago at a local show, a dealer showed me an awesomely toned Buffalo nickel - 1938-D, MS65. Canary yellow obverse with a beon blue reverse, slabbed by NGC. These are very common and he wanted $100, about a 3X toning premium. But it is a unique coin.

I called him today to buy the coin and he told me the price is $150. We are playing phone tag, but I let him know that he definitely quoted me the coin at $100 just over a week ago. I won't pay $150 for the coin - too much of a premium, and out of principle I don't appreciate that he jacked-up the price on me.

Do you think this is fair? Nothing in the market has changed greatly since the original price quote.

Edited to update title.

keithdagen · January 30, 2003 7:20AM

Considering that you can get a nice MS-67 for slightly more, and the dealer has upped the price, I would pass on the deal.

EVillageProwler · January 30, 2003 7:21AM

IMO, if you've already accepted the $100 quote from him, then he should not change the price.

If otherwise, then I'm not so sure...

EVP

greghansen · January 30, 2003 7:23AM

I don't think the 'fairness' of his decision to up the asking price is something you should lose much sleep over. If he agrees to sell you the coin on the original quote, great. If not, don't buy the coin and don't get steamed over him exercising his right to increase his asking price.

Blade · January 30, 2003 7:25AM

Greg,
I'm not really steamed. Just not the best business practice IMO.

Keith - I have looked at hundreds of MS toned Buffs. It is a side interest of mine I am developing. This one is in the Top 5 I have ever seen. The colors are amazing. So grades get thrown out the window at that point.

dlshaw · January 30, 2003 7:27AM

He might of quoted you that price at the show to make a sell, If you didn't purchase it than I don't think you can hold him to that price at a later date.

hughesm1 · January 30, 2003 7:29AM

<< I don't think the 'fairness' of his decision to up the asking price is something you should lose much sleep over. If he agrees to sell you the coin on the original quote, great. If not, don't buy the coin and don't get steamed over him exercising his right to increase his asking price. >>

I totally disagree...think of it this way: You go to purchase a new car with all the options you want and the dealer says he'll sell it to you at dealer cost. You have to get an approval for a loan from your bank, so you haven't committed to the purchase yet. You come back to the dealer, loan has been approved, and the dealer now says it's going to cost $1500 over cost.

I would stick it up their aß and find another dealer. End of story.

"edited for spelling"

MadMarty · January 30, 2003 7:49AM

Lots of dealers will give a good price to move a coins at a show. That price is good for that moment, you say I'll think about and leave that's it. over... The dealer has every right to raise his price. If it's too much pass, and wait for another to come along.

Spooly · January 30, 2003 8:02AM

I just called a dealer that quoted me a price on a 1909 S VDB MS-65 RED ten years ago. The sorry bas^er won't sell it to me for $1200.00!!! RIP OFF DEALER!

DCAMFranklin · January 30, 2003 8:02AM

<< Lots of dealers will give a good price to move a coins at a show. That price is good for that moment, you say I'll think about and leave that's it. over... The dealer has every right to raise his price. If it's too much pass, and wait for another to come along. >>

Complete agreement. Especially when a toned coin is involved. By your own admission, "The colors are amazing. So grades get thrown out the window at this point." Well, if you think it is a "top 5" coin, do you think you are the only collector/dealer that has shown an interest?????? The greater the interest shown in the coin,.......then the higher the "premium" for the color. Learn from the experience!! Next time you are struck by a "top 5" coin, give the coin the consideration it deserves RIGHT THEN!

Petescorner · January 30, 2003 8:11AM

I agree with Keith. Check out the color, grade, and price I got for this one just last month. Unless the toning was unlike anything I had ever seen on a 38-D Buffalo, I would think there are better deals out there.

Old Auction

gsaguy · January 30, 2003 8:22AM

I'm sure my post will get some folks p.o.'d but here goes:

When you're at a show and a dealer offers you a coin at $XX and you get up and walk away from his table, unless you've made it clear otherwise, he can rightly assume that you've passed on the coin at that price. In that case, whether you return in 5 minutes, 5 days, 5 weeks...whatever, he's under no obligation to quote you the same price again.

Now, if you feel he's just jacked up the price because he assumes that you're interested in the coin, then don't do business with him. On the other hand, he MIGHT just quote you a lower price when he sees you again because he really wants to make the sale.

Okay, arm the flame throwers!

GSAGUY

truthteller · January 30, 2003 8:22AM

I got a better story. Collector comes in my store, sees a coin that he likes. Tells me he owns the coin, but will come in a week later to pay. I put the coin aside. One week passes, so I call the collector, says he will come in a few days. Two weeks go by, collector comes in and says he will pick up the coin in a week. After two months of holding a $500 coin, I don't see the collector. Three months later, the market changes and the coin I put aside goes up on the greysheet to double what I quoted the collector. Collector comes in soon after that, and wants to now pay for the coin. Sorry buddy, your SOL. Collectors need to know, if you want the coin now, the price is good NOW, not a day from now, not a week from now, not a month from now, but NOW!!!! Dealers make money on consumated deals, not deals whenever the collector want to finish a deal. Unless you have a very good relationship, it's pass or play.

TRUTH

TomB · January 30, 2003 8:25AM

If it's as nice as you state then it is probably worth the $150.

As for changing the price on you, well, you were given a quote at a show, you were not given an open-ended deal. I say this because the activity of a show can dictate how much someone is willing to sell the coin for and he may have been willing to sell it for $100 at that show for that day to you. However, this in no way implies that if you come back two weeks later that that price will still be valid. I know many people will not agree with me on this one but, sorry, the price at a show is good then and may be changed later for any reason.

hookooekoo · January 30, 2003 8:25AM

hughesm1 and Spooly both make good points.

In the end, I think the appropriate answer is that it depends on the situation.

IMHO, if you didn't make some sort of commitment to purchase the coin while you were at the show, the dealer has no obligation to later sell you the coin at the price quoted at the show. The same thing would hold if you saw the coin in his shop and went to purchase it two weeks later.

Now if you made any sort of commitment (such as, asking him to hold the coin for x number of days til you come up with the money) and he ups the price when you come to complete the transaction, then I would consider the dealer of trying to be a rip-off and wouldn't deal with him any more.

ScarsdaleCoin · January 30, 2003 9:00AM

snooze you lose...hate to say it buy you got it wrong...he offered you a coin at a price....you did not take it when offered if you go back he sure has the right to change the price, I know dealers that offer a price and if you come back to the show an hour later they up it.......sure it sucks that he went up in price and life isnt fair...but you had the chance to buy the coin and passed....move on...

roadrunner · January 30, 2003 9:16AM

Prices should only be good for one moment in time unless a different agreement is reached. If the price of that coin goes down you won't see old Joe coming around to buy it. Sometimes markets can turn on a dime. Witness the price of Saints in 65 at the FUN show. By the end of the show you couldn't buy a common PCGS 65 Saint for less than $200 over sheet. You don't expect to be able to come back 3 days later and have your same price intact?

roadrunner

ms71 · January 30, 2003 9:23AM

No way around it, you passed on the coin at the quoted price and walked away. The dealer certainly isn't under any obligation to make the quote open-ended. It has happened to me, and it galls, but I'm always mostly ticked off at myself. In any event, the dealer may lose a customer & certainly gets more than his few bucks worth of bad mouth on the street.

Fairlaneman · January 30, 2003 9:30AM

The first price was for a "Done Deal" at the time. The second price is for a "Done Deal" now. Seems that is how it works with everything.

Spooly its good to see you post. Cracked me up also.

Ken

LincolnCentMan · January 30, 2003 9:39AM

Well, here's the way I look at it. If you agreed to buy the coin, and he agreed to hold it, then it should be the said $100. If not, then it's his coin... his price.

I will say this about toned coins, I pay "huge" premiums relative to greysheet for choice rainbows. I've paid $450 for a morgan that had a greysheet around $40. I could give lots of examples, but you get the picture. I'm not the only one on this board that will pay well for nice toning.

David

prooflike · January 30, 2003 10:11AM

Lower your price now, offer $75!

CoinResource · January 30, 2003 1:06PM

Show pricing definitely can be different than "street price." Most dealers would honor the offered price (if you contact them soon after). But they are not obligated too unless you asked them to hold it for you. I say offer $10 over show price and ask him to meet you at that price as a compromise. Sounds like a nice coin. -cr

CThomas · January 30, 2003 1:23PM

That's the funniest s**t i've heard in a long time Spooly!!

Blade · January 30, 2003 1:27PM

Very valuable information all. It's great to get this kind of insight on dealer behavior. I agree that prices can fluctuate, and sure, it's his coin to sell for whatever he wants.

My company provides quotes that are good for 30 days. Period. We also allow anyone to return a product for 30 days, no questions asked. Period. If the market changes, we eat the difference. I realize that coins, especially those with high bullion content, are very different and a price is subject to change. I just want to know why there is a change and a satisfactory answer was not given. This makes me believe that my follow-up call on the coin convinced the dealer that he had a "live one" on the phone and could jack up the price. Not the way I want to do business.

As for why I skipped it at the time, I have a bunch of 38-Ds and am trying to build out the date set. I made the call at the time and bought a nice toned 1913 Type II. Not whining that I passed this up, and if it had sold, oh well. Just not sure about the pricing tactics.

zenny · January 30, 2003 1:45PM

<< ...I have looked at hundreds of MS toned Buffs. It is a side interest of mine I am developing. This one is in the Top 5 I have ever seen. The colors are amazing. So grades get thrown out the window at that point. >>

read what you wrote, read it again.

call the guy, or go to his shop.

give him the $150.

no brainer.

OneYearTypes · January 30, 2003 1:58PM

<< 

<< ...I have looked at hundreds of MS toned Buffs. It is a side interest of mine I am developing. This one is in the Top 5 I have ever seen. The colors are amazing. So grades get thrown out the window at that point. >>

read what you wrote, read it again.
call the guy, or go to his shop.
give him the $150.
no brainer. >>

now, wouldn't it be funny if you went back to him and this time he asked $200?

gsaguy · January 30, 2003 2:05PM

Markets go up, markets go down....some faster than others.

The coin market is pretty crazy right now. Greysheet example:

January 10, 2003 1879-CC capped die MS65 Bid $17,000 Ask $20,500
January 24, 2003 1879-CC capped die MS65 Bid $33,000 Ask $36,000

I happen to own such a coin. Should I sell it today for $17,000 because someone passed on it a week ago at a show for $17,000? And if in a week it's at $10,000 on the greysheet, should I demand $33,000 because that's where it once was?

But I will say this, if I promised the coin at a price, it'll be delivered at that price.

GSAGUY

mr1931S · January 30, 2003 2:12PM

I agree with most on this one.A verbally quoted price is not good indefinitely.

An exception as far as i'm concerned is: If the dealer has a placed a written price on a coin in it's holder i think it's unethical (maybe illegal too-it's called bait and switch) for a dealer to verbally quote a higher price to a potential buyer than the price marked on the holder.

Short of no marked price on the holder when the buyer is ready with funds to make the purchase,
the price for a coin is what the dealer wants at the time.

Blade · January 30, 2003 2:16PM

Brian (GSAGUY),
Out of curiosity, what would cause the value of that coin to double in a week? Is it because they are very rare and come up at auction infrequently? So when one sells, the pricing structure is reset? The tough thing about that is we know that even in a given grade, there are so many variables that impact value. You experience and thoughts on this would be appreciated.

braddick · January 30, 2003 2:19PM

If you decide to pass on this Buffalo would you please PM me the Dealer's contact info? I'd love to own that coin.

gsaguy · January 30, 2003 2:25PM

Blade,

I gues I'm supposed to be an expert and I really don't have a clue! What would make the price go up like this? Since I really don't know how the greysheet works, I can only make a guess or two. Perhaps one was recently 'made' at one of the services and a collector really needs it for his collection and he's therefore posted that buy price to make it surface? Maybe a forum member who understands the workings of the sheet would be better prepared to give a possible explanation.

Did that coin's value really double in a week or two? I doubt it seriously, but then I think this is a good example of how difficult it can be to price inventory. At my most recent shows I consistently priced material a bit back of greysheet bid but heard others saying they were getting above greysheet ask because the market was so strong.

Good post Blade. We need more like it.

GSAGUY

jamesfsm · January 30, 2003 2:32PM

It's a rapid buy and sell biz. Dealers grow impatient with those of us who change our minds and/or are slow to decide. You gotta get used to it.

mr1931S · January 30, 2003 2:55PM

The only force at work in this case of the dealer with the toned '38-D Buffalo Nickel is the desire to charge and get as much as the market will bear.i don't see any correlation of the dealers 50%increased price with the greysheet price two weeks later.

over $100 these days for '38-D Buffalo Nickels?...i'm getting old...once upon a time i cherry picked original unc rolls of '37-S nickels for $4 apiece...i picked out some absolutely fully struck blazers...the dealer told me "look for them to double"...i don't have them anymore...some of them are probably now in PCGS MS 68 holders...

i'm going to start to wear my trousers rolled...

michael · January 30, 2003 4:31PM

for me blade i think you sre a very astute collector and you say this buffalo was one of the finest toned buffs you have ever seen!
and the dealer offered to sell it to you for 100

well if i was in back of you at this show after you left i would have bought it so fast it would have made your head spin for 100 dollars

i guess for me my karma is that i can always do without any coin and if it is meant to be then i will own it and if not then there was an experience there and as always there is something aruond the corner that is better and less money!
and if not i will survive

with coins it is pass or play and if you pass then the next play may or may not be the same as the previious play

sincerely michael

ScarsdaleCoin · January 31, 2003 3:01AM

I have never heard of a dealer holding a quote for 30 days....unless you just add so much markup ???? markets change daily....taking a coin back is a different story god bless you

Blade · February 3, 2003 4:49AM

I just got a call back from this dealer. He admitted that he raised the price to $150 after I left because he had never seen colors like that on a Buffalo and want to see if he could get a higher price.

He really wanted $150 but after a bit of negotiating he agreed to meet me half way at $125, since he originally quoted me $100 and I showed great interest in the coin. I bought the coin and will send pics in a couple weeks after I get it. I hope I can get the colors right!

benloe · February 3, 2003 5:04AM

I love a happy ending.

truthteller · February 3, 2003 5:23AM

As the rainbow buffalo sank into the western sky, Blade rode off into a beautiful sunset. Hiho buffalo!! Away!!!!!!

TRUTH

Blade · March 28, 2003 10:29PM

Here is the Buffalo! Lemon-yellow iridescent obverse and blue iridescent reverse. Thanks much to Bryan at TBT for shooting the images. He offered and his picture-taking talents are way better than mine! The tan streak on the reverse doesn't really bother me as I believe it supports the originality of the toning. Let me know what you think.

Bustman · March 28, 2003 10:33PM

A very pretty buffalo!!

Blade · March 29, 2003 4:29AM

Anyone else have one like this?

Pics attached - Toned Buffalo! (Orig title: Coin dealer changing a price)

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