Morgan Dollars ~ PCGS vs. NGC ~ Grading

JMOORE

Not trying to start a debate, but since I'm starting to buy Morgan Dollars I was wondering what your opinion is.

Does NGC grade close to PCGS?

Thanks!

MrKelso

Nice Looking Morgan but i need a tad bigger pic to try and grade it.

LucyBop

Interesting question, I look forward to a answer from the Morgan experts on this one....

JMOORE

'Oh, sorry.......

That one is graded PCGS MS65.

I was just asking about NGC vs. PCGS

It seems like some of the MS67 NGC graded Morgans sell at good prices.

jbsteven

my opinion is that NGC graded coins are about 1/2 a point higher graded than PCGS

example:
a nice pcgs ms66 would be a 67 in NGC plastic

when it is time resale the PCGS graded coins get better money

tradedollarnut

Close - yes. The same - no. But when the spread is lots, be very careful. However, there are undergrades, solid grades and overgrades in both company's holders. Learn to tell which is which.

As always - ignore the holder and pay attention to the coin itself. What it's worth to you is what you should pay. Figure the holder is only an insurance policy that the coin doesn't turn purple or black.

IrishMike

Grading is virtually the same. There is very little difference in price, if you can buy a nice Morgan in an NGC slab you will save a few dollars. It's absolute goofy to say that PCGS grades a half point tougher. Most of the PCGS premium is registry driven. Many formerly slabbed NGC slabbed Morgans have migrated to PCGS slabs, so a selling premium exists if the coin is nice.

jbsteven

<< <i>It's absolute goofy to say that PCGS grades a half point tougher >>



so why is a 1901 O ngc graded ms66 worth $600 and a PCGS one $850+?

My belief is that most NGC coins (Morgans) bring a lower premium grade for grade vs. PCGS

MrKelso

The slabs that i own on both sides of the fence look to be about the same. Some of the NGC may be a point higher then they should but not always.
NGC does not seem to do to good with Gold coins in my opinion.

KlectorKid

The lower grade (MS60-63) morgans graded by NGC are about the same as a PCGS graded one but as the grade goes higher I have noticed NGC starts over grading a bit. 65's graded 66, 64's graded 65, ect. But they are usually with-in a point of PCGS. The problem though is with such large price spreads between 64 and 65, 65 and 66 and even more with 66 and 67, 1 point could cost you a pretty penny.

tradedollarnut

While there is a definite difference in average grading, it seems to me that it occurs more because of PCGS's reticence to give out higher grades. NGC seems to grade to the full scale, whereas getting a high grade out of PCGS is like pulling teeth.

IrishMike

jb, look at the sheets, do a comparison on teletrade. The difference is insignificant. You pay a little less for a NGC slab and when you sell a PCGS slab it sells for a little more. The net result is zero. A close friend of mine tried for years to cross PCGS coins to NGC for that half point you talk about. It didn't happen. One upgrade in 3 years. Now he collects Morgans and not slabs.

IrishMike

Klectorkid, that simply is not true. This year I jettisoned several some PCGS 67PL Morgans, some to forum members. Why did I sell them, simple they were overgraded. KK how many have you owned? Remember the Keets fiasco? If anything its my opinion that when you get into the 67 range PCGS is too generous.

KlectorKid

Im not going to argue with you, you very well could be right. Key words

<< <i>I have noticed >>

Just IMO.

FC57Coins

I haven't seen anything above a 66 myself - from either service, and to me they've looked pretty similar. Below are an 1883CC in MS64DMPL and an 1898O in MS64DPL. There'll always be differences between coins, but to me these are pretty darned close!

Frank

jbsteven

Irish:
look at the example I gave in my post, those numbers come from the sheets



<< <i>1901 O ngc graded ms66 worth $600 and a PCGS one $850+ >>



did I read the sheets wrong?

tradedollarnut

NGC and PCGS do NOT grade to the same standard. NGC is quite proud of the fact that they grade to their own standard (and have stated that Rick Montgomery will have to adapt to THAT standard). The standards are close - certainly within less than a point, but they are NOT the same. They are close enough that one should expect to find coins accurately graded (or even undergraded) by PCGS standards in NGC holders for a lot less than you would expect to pay for the same coin at PCGS. But on average, PCGS is tighter.

Since we collect individual coins and not statistics, one must examine each coin to determine the quality of that coin and decide if the price is right for the quality. The rest is just statistics - and you know what they say about statistics!

IrishMike

You can make an argument on one coin all day long, do some research on the entire series, there is little pricing difference. I stated that nice coins have migrated to PCGS slabs. Back a few years ago in the heyday of crack and dip, PQ NGC coins were cracked out and upgraded, because in those days PCGS graded looser. It was not unusual for a PCGS coin to be sold on the bourse floor one day, taken to a hotel room dipped and resubmitted to PCGS the next day and upgraded. Some of those so called monster coins in PCGS slabs were resubmitted many many times. If you don't believe me dredge up the monsterman threads on the subject in the registry forum. He only built one of the top 4 Morgan sets of all time. It was only when PCGS tightened their standards and lost their consistency that these guys gave up the game.

JMOORE

<< <i>Not trying to start a debate, but >>

coinkat

First, both PCGS and NGC do a good job with Morgans. I always advocate that you should buy the Morgans that you like regardless of whether the coin is in a PCGS or NGC holder. Second, I do not think that there is a clear answer to the question because it really depends upon which dates/mints that are being compared. I am not going off on a long written explanation of these differences. There is really no right or wrong answer to the general question that was asked, however, the answers that we will read will be predicated on past experiences and the perception in the market of PCGS and NGC(whether that perception is right or wrong is another issue).

BTW, great looking '98-0 Frank.

Placid

I have 3 ngc morgans at pcgs now for crossover.
Two of them were graded about ten years ago.

tradedollarnut

Perhaps someone could educate me on how the sheets ever enter into this debate.

Greysheet - sight seen. It's assumed the coin makes the grade. There are properly graded coins in both holders, therefore at any given time greysheet may apply to either holder.

Bluesheet - sight unseen. It's assumed the coin is a dog. There are overgraded coins in both holders, therefore at any given time bluesheet may apply to either holder.

Neither sheet's prices tells us what percentage of NGC or PCGS coins are dogs, make the grade or are undergraded. Or am I missing something?

IrishMike

Well put coinkat. Sheet means little TDN, like I said as long as demand pushes the prices higher for PCGS coins you will have to pay more. Nice coins in either slab go for over sheet. It's a net zero sum game.

tradedollarnut

Not Morgan related, but debate related:

At FUN, I held two 1855/4 proof halves in my hand. One was PCGS PF64, the other was NGC PF64. The coins were both nice, but the PCGS was nicer. Was the NGC overgraded? Not really, 64 seemed about right - tho I don't think it would cross due to some contact marks on Liberty. But the PCGS coin is flat out undergraded. I think it'd look right in an NGC PF66 holder, it's that nice.

So, I'm here to state that NGC pretty much got the grade right for grading on an 11 point scale and PCGS was too conservative. Yet the net result is that NGC gets dinged for being looser.

Too bad there aren't many opportunities to buy 66 looking coins in 64 holders!

coinguy1

jbsteven and others - "Buy the coin, not the holder," and don't put too much faith in the sheets.

I don't know where these numbers of jbsteven's came from : "so why is a 1901 O ngc graded ms66 worth $600 and a PCGS one $850+?" I can't find those prices on the bluesheet or the greysheet. And, if it was prices merely quoted by dealers, it doesn't necessarily reflect the real market.

The MS66 1901-O that was given as an example above, has a sight-unseen difference of only $135 on the Certified Coin Exchange (We are subscribers and I just looked it up). That is the real market on sight-unseen bids. Furthermore, a lot of the published price differences go out the window when coins trade on a sight-seen basis and that is how the vast majority of coins should and do trade.

I will say it again and again, "buy the coin, not the holder" - don't buy PCGS coins blindly over NGC ones or NGC ones blindly over PCGS ones.

stman

I'll throw my hat in just a touch.... I've mentioned this before but a lot of times people will look at prices perceived as market prices relating to Ebay and other auction archives, which is only part of the marked and should not be mistaken for the whole market.

There is a whole different world out there besides Ebay coins.

jbsteven

mark I agree with you on the coin not the holder. I have a 1901 o in a ngc holder and while looking at the bluesheet from 11-22-02 in the "market category" is where I was getting my numbers

said coin

pcgs bluesheet bid 690 market 890
ngc bluesheet bid 525 market 675

I am using this as my basis. I understand that the real world might be different from the bluesheets.

coinguy1

jbsteven - thanks for the clarification and after reading your most recent post, I'm not nearly as worried about you as I was.

tradedollarnut

How to lose lots of money:

Method #1 - buy raw coins off the internet w/o knowledge
Method #2 - buy certified coins off the internet w/o knowledge
Method #3 - buy only PCGS (and/or NGC) certified coins off the internet w/o knowledge
Method #4 - send all your money to Russ so he can blow it on Kennedys

At least method #4 makes someone we know and love very happy!

[feel free to substitute "from certain Coin World advertisors" for "off the internet"]

EVillageProwler

Those of you who like to argue about grading services vis-a-vis supposed market premiums are ones who need a good lesson in how to read properly.

The original question from JMoore is whether the two services grade similarly. It has nothing to do with vague notions of pricing based on some arbitrary price sheet.

Moreover, if you're looking to build a quality set of COINS and then subsequently decide to base your acquisition strategy on the holder on sight-unseen pricing, then you're possibly the biggest fool ever to grace this planet.

I'm truly sorry to be so blunt and harsh, but you're sadly mistaken if you think you can build a quality set of coins if don't strictly buy the coin instead of the holder.

EVP