So many shades/degrees of "red/brown" - updated

coinguy1

This is a follow-up to a previous thread of mine about some of the various colors/shades of "BN" and "RB" Proof Indian cents.

Here are some images of "RB" mint state Large Cents and Indian Cents. Even a quick look will reveal that "RB" can certainly be dramatically different on one coin compared to another and that many degrees and shades are encompassed by the "RB" designation.

"RB" Large Cent #1

"RB" Large Cent #2

"RB" Indian Cent #1

"RB" Indian Cent #2

"RB" Indian Cent #3

"RB" Indian Cent #4

"RB" Indian Cent #5

littlewicher

Wow, what a difference in shades between some of them. Due to this, I don't think I would buy any RB coin, without at least seeing a picture of it. How much red on a coin does PCGS or NGC require for the "RD" designation? Some of your coins there, look almost "RD" to me; especially coin #5.

Android

Mark,

Wow, so there is no certain "percentage" such as 50/50 that determines an "official" RB designation? Your last example looks RD to me.

Andy

Pushkin

Coinguy,

Nice pictures and excellent points about the various shades.

airplanenut

Great post! I never would have thought the spectrum is really so large- some look red, while some, the #2 IHC especially, look brown!

Jeremy

PS- is there possibly underlying luster in IHC #2 and red that is masked that gave it a RB designation?

nwcs

From what I have read, RB is given from between 16% to 90% red on the coin. Is that your experience as well, Mark?

coinguy1

To each of you who has asked questions - I will answer them in another, later post to this thread (I promise!). First, though, I want to give forum members time to view the images, give their impressions, etc. Thank you for your interest, patience and cooperation in this matter.

ccr

The Braided Hair cent/half-cent are among my most favorite coins. I haven`t seen a large amount of these coins and it seems to me alot of these that are red/red-brown look like clay. These two don`t and I really like them; they look like metal like I expect large cents to be. I wonder why reddish large cents look like clay? Maybe bad scans or age and enviroment?

shylock

Nice comparison post Mark, it really shows how broad the RB range is. The next step is to add BNs & RDs, slice them all up and paste them together into a spectrum. Supposedly that's how PCGS attributes color, with graders referencing that spectrum in their mind's eye and calling the middle 70% RB. At least that's how Rick Montgomery described it, but maybe that was just his way of saying they go with their gut.

EVillageProwler

Be careful with this, Mark. Copper coinage can turn color while in the holder. For borderline coins (color-wise), this can throw off your lesson. The spectrum idea is a good one, but you don't want a coin residing in the wrong place in the spectrum simply because the color changed after the slabbing took place!

EVP

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Shylock,

They Go With Their Gut

Well said ! I have seen a red Brown coin upgrade to red sooooo many times.I can also say that the present collectors look at the coins more than 10 years ago when there was sight unseen bidding
and buying of copper coins

I will advise a buyer of red Brown copper to LOOK at the coin before buying it ALL the time.Scans can be deceptive.

Can anyone post a picture of the Atwater 1793 Wreath Cent graded ms 68 red ?

Mark - Can you post a photo of the 1920 s Lincoln cent that Pinnacle is selling in the NGC ms 65 RED holder.It is a woody as it has wood grain toning.

stewart

toothpuller

Another variable in determining an RD vs RB designation on copper is the date of the coin. For some years like the early 80s for IHCs the original planchets were darker. A grader might give these dates a little more leeway in handing out the RD attribution.

What I am attempting to say is what might be RB for one date can be RD for another.

Lakesammman

Shared this picture in another thread....may not help much to ask for a picture as it is hard to reproduce the RB color accurately. Pinnacle has really brought up it's image quality to the point that I at least know whether I'm interested or not - for other dealers, it's still like buying sight unseen.

This picture compares my early attempts with my latest attempts. I think the lower images in the first picture with reveal lights accurately portrays the coin....I would have passed on it if the first pics had been provided.

Also, be sure to see/look/check both sides - a great red Ob with a RB reverse is a RB coin.

Lakesammman

Here's another example, 2 points. First, the reverse is more muted, technically a RB coin, but went for R money because the spectacular obverse "carried" it (Pennsylvania collection, Bowers). The second point is how hard it is to capture the true colors, esp. on a proof. Shylock can tell you how hard I work at picturing coins accurately - still haven't captured this one correctly. Bottom line is, if you like the picture, odds are the coin is even better in person....

michael

wow a great thrread!! now only threads like thia about coins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the 1853 i really like a neat reed brown and no spots little to no carbon and lusterous!!

the 56 to me is a red coin!!!!!!!!! i do not like the red brown woodgrain 1864

i like the last wo indian coins the 1883 red broan and the last coin look red to me the 1883 has nice eye appeal and flash i bet it looks better in person! hard to capture indian head proofs! in scans

here is a scan not a good scan as the coin is better in person of an 1884 red brown proof

sincerely michael

Lakesammman

Michael - beautiful!

coinguy1

littlewicher,

I agree that these (and most other coins, for that matter) should not be bought on a sight-unseen basis!

In answer to your question - my experience has been that roughly 90% full red is required for a "RD" designation. However, it gets tricky because different date cents display different full red color, as made. So you can't judge each date by the same standard. toothpuller rightly pointed that out in his post.

There are also different ways in which the color of a copper cent can be something other than full red. For instance, a given piece might be full blazing mint red, with the exception of some noticeable mellowing about portions of the rim. Or, a coin might have a perfectly even, slightly mellowed hue to the entire surface. The latter type of example can be very difficult to make color designation determinations for!

Andy - in answer to your question about the determination for the "RB" designation - I believe that roughly 20% red or faded red color is required for "RB" as opposed to "BN". It can be tricky, though. It might make a difference if the remaining "RD" or "RB" color is on the obverse instead of the reverse or if it is in the central portions, rather than the outer border. See comment to littlewicher above, regarding requirements for "RD" vs. "RB."

nwcs - my experience closely matches what you have apparently read about the "RB" percentages.

ccr - I'm not clear on what you mean by the "clay" look of some "RB" pieces you have seen. If you can post some images, that would be great.

Paul - I like your idea of "The next step is to add BNs & RDs, slice them all up and paste them together into a spectrum." But, I'd much rather you do it!

EVP made an excellent point (which I had planned to discuss!) when he said "Copper coinage can turn color while in the holder."

I have seen a few "RD" copper coins that were actually closer to "BN" than "RD", many "RD" ones that were really "RB" and many "RB" that were really "BN". Copper can definitely change color while in the holder! It can also acquire spots, which often plague such pieces. So, if it weren't already difficult enough to designate copper by the "RD", "RB" and BN" options, you also need to be concerned with those pieces which have turned color after being slabbed.

Stewart - in response to your request, here is the 1920-S NGC MS65RD Lincoln cent you wanted to see an image of - it does look much more "RD" in person, if my memory serves me correctly :



Lakesammman - thanks for the images.

Michael - why not try something different and make a negative comment, sometime!


Thanks to everyone for your contributions. I might be able to post some new images of "RB" and "BN" Proof Indian Cents in the next day or two.

coinguy1

Here are some new images of "RB" proof Indian cents:


1868 NGC PR65RB


1873 NGC PR65RB


1879 NGC PR66RB


1885 NGC PR66RB


1905 PCGS PR65RB

michael

wowm the 1885 and 1905 are really super and i bet many timkes nicer in personb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i know that proof indians are super hard coins to image!! especially witrh great toning but i can extropolate and see that these coins are nice in the image which means they are superlative in person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the 1879 and the 1868 are also superb!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tell me does themwoodgrain effect on mintstare coins limit their grqade at the grading services? also does it limit the price of the coin also?

sincerely michael