How I grade a dealer ! AG or PQ ?

PQpeace

After reading all of the Park Ave. thread the other day,it brought up how I like to grade a dealer...Dealers are just like coins..from AG-MS68

I grade a dealer by how many coins he or she ships me after telling me that I will love the coin... that I have to ship back because it is either overgraded or just ugly.
Many dealers over hype their dogs to get rid of them,and eventually they will not come back. When you throw **** at a wall,eventually it will stick..as my favorite dealer likes to say.

If dealer A sends me 10 coins and I like 7 of them..I am pretty darn happy.
If I only like 5 or 6 of them,I am still going to use that dealer,but may ask for a more accurate description in the future.

If I like zero to 3 of 10 coins,that dealer has a major problem.

Let's take a few people on this board to start with....
then a few more we have all heard of..
I am not trying to slam anyone..just the facts here...
When I read in the Green thread..you will love the coin..it really made me mad when it turned sour !
I have not seen the coin,so I can't take sides on that one.

Dragon...he has been dragged thru the mud a few times on this board..
I have bought about 20 coins from him so far.
Out of 20 coins,only one was really over graded in my opinion.
He did not agree with me,but sent me a better coin to replace it that I love.
The other 19 I kept because I either liked the coin or the price was right.
This is a PRETTY DARN GOOD RECORD.

Jon Rosenthal has sent me 4 coins.
I liked all 4,and bought 3..
that is very good.
He is first class !

Legend..
They have sent me quite a few coins.
I send back more than their 2% return rate for sure,but they have sold me quite a few great coins that are keepers.
They let me return coins with no questions asked..
They even let me bring coins back to them in person.
I am quite happy with their service...
Do they think I am too picky ??
You will have to ask them..but I bet they would love to buy ALL my dollars sight unseen anyday !! right Laura ?

East coast dealer..........

Steve and I have had 6 coins sent to us..
all 6 were not anywhere close to their description..
I bought one of them just because of the price.I used it as a hole filler until I got a better one..
so zero for 6.............

CT. Dealer
the last 8 coins I have received have all gone back.
Not anywhere close to what they say..
They got mad at me for trying to buy coins instead of slabs...really ..they said most of their customers don't know the difference and buy the plastic..
After he realized what he had admitted to me,he told me how sorry he was for being mad at me..
anyway...no more wasted postage here....
But they do have a great newsletter that has valuable information.He is a great writer for sure !


Then there is a guy on Ebay that has a PQ in his seller name..
steve and I have bought 1 out of maybe 12 coins we have been shipped..
all over graded with enhanced pics..
I have heard the same about him from many other collectors and dealers.
He tells me he has never had bad feedback..well I owe him at least 11 of them..but don't want to do that because of what may happen to me in return.

Pinnacle:

Probably sent back 1/2 the coins...but the ones I have kept are great..
They have great customer service...2 of them are great to look at !!! they are really PQ..sorry Mark
Mark knows a heck of alot about coins....very serious dealer..maybe he could smile a bit more !!..but he works like a dog,and probbably isn't concerned about smiling He should be liked by all on this board !!

They let me browse at shows all I want..
I have brought them customers who have spent alot of money with them..I only do this with dealers I like and respect.

Anyway..you all may have your opinions on this and how you grade a dealer....but if I am told I will love a coin..it has great eye appeal,great luster,high end for the grade....and when I get it,there is no strike,luster etc..I am not gonna be in a good mood when I have to waste that 1 hour doing the post office thing.

Speaking of strike..
I was just sent a 21p peace dollar in ms66 that I was told had a great strike..
when I received it,it was flat as a pancake....not very nice...

Anyway..time to wash my car..
will be back in 30 minutes with my flame suit on

Have a great weekend everyone..
Larry

SarasotaFrank

Larry:

Of teh dealers you named, I only have experience with Jon, and I can only wish every dealer was as tedious and genuinely motivated to satisfy his customer as Jon.

Cannot recommend them highly enough.

as for getting flamed, what the hey:

coinguy1

PQpeace/Larry,

In response to your post - I will try to smile more at shows. I love my work and am sorry if it doesn't always show

tradedollarnut

I think it's important to understand that grading dealers is just like grading coins - there are no standards, just interpretations [cross thread alert!]. IMO, having a relationship with a good dealer is invaluable - but it's important to find a compatible fit. If you are quality conscious, certain dealers just won't work for you. If you are price sensitive, others won't work. You need to accurately assess what is important to you and find a few dealers that fit the bill. If you are returning most of the coins sent to you from a certain dealer for one reason or the other, the fit is probably not correct. Why not explain what is important to you personally to the dealer and ask them for a recommendation of a better fit? I think most of the good dealers would rather give you honest feedback than either continue to waste their time trying to sell you a coin or burn a bridge. Especially in this day and age of the internet where one false step gets plastered all over the chat rooms!

With regards to PAN, I don't know them and have never seen one of their coins (they don't have images - what good is that?). But (relying on memory because I have absolutely no intention of opening that thread again) wasn't the quote "your customer will love you" NOT "your customer will love the coin". To me that means that he is referring to the dealer finding an extremely rare and desirable piece rather than referring to the quality of the coin. Or, maybe I just remember the quote wrong.

dwood

With all due respect, and I mean that as sincerely as I possibly can:

Grading dealers is about as subjective as grading coins. There are some dealers in your thread who you don't grade well, but I do. Likewise there are some in your thread who receive high marks, but will never see another dime of my money.

Dealer-Collector relationships are unique. They take work, and time to develop. They have as much (probably more) to do with personalities and philosophy as they do with grading and pricing. A good relationship consists of far more than the quality of the coin, and the price paid. Perhaps you are a picky collector, or perhaps you have ordered coins from a dealer who's specialty lies in another series? Perhaps the dealer had a bad day, or was at a weak point in his inventory? Or perhaps she is needing cataract surgery, and is missing minute details that used to jump out at him/her. I'm not trying to jump on you or anything, I just don't see the point of this post, especially in light of "the thread from hell" we've all just endured. And why you chose to cite dealers by name and practice is, in my opinion, suspicious at best.

I like Coca Cola. In fact, I'll NEVER buy a Pepsi product in my life, and they are banned forever from my home. Does that mean that Pepsi is a horrible product, or that those who work for Pepsi are crooks and/or morons? Should I find a "Carbonated Discussion Forum" and try to show the world the truth, the light, and the way?

Nope.

It means I have an opinion. And it means I have a preference. And I don't see the relevance in sharing it with the rest of the carbonated beverage industry in a public forum. I'll share it by continuing to buy coke, and not Pepsi. It won't really help Coke much, it won't really hurt Pepsi much, it won't hurt or help any other carbonated beverage drinkers much. It only serves to make me feel right in my decision to support Coke. I guess its some sort of "inner, self-justification?"

Since coming to this forum, I've kept my primary dealer a secret. Mainly because everyone has an opinion, and I'm sure if I were to mention his name, he would get blasted nine ways to Sunday. But you know what? He gives me what I want, at a price I think is fair. If I don't like a coin, he'll take it back (but he's learned not to send one that might come back). I pay him too much every now and then, because I don't want to lose him. I buy stuff I don't really need because I want him to stay in business. He sells me a GREAT coin at a GREAT price, and we're even again. And the cycle continues. I support him, which means I can't "win" every transaction. If I did, he'd get tired of me. And if he did, I'd get tired of him. I'm more interested in having a great collection, than having a collection I got for cheap money. I don't do this to make money, and I don't do it to lose money. I do it because I love coins. And I do it because I have a great dealer whom I have invested a lot of time effort and money in. And because my dealer has a client with whom he has done the same. Win/Win...it isn't just a cliche.

PQpeace

Hi Bruce,
good comments as usual..
You are right on about a "good fit"
I always tell a dealer what I am looking for right off the bat.Most catch on quickly..some never do.
The ones who understand what a customer wants and tries hard to fill the need is the PQ dealer...
Ones who keep sending you bottom feeder coins....well...

Mark..just playing with you..
You look just like me at work..
I come to work,and not to play..serious about what I do

We all will have different opinions of the dealers I have mentioned,but I just want people to think in general about dealers who fill your needs at least most of trhe time.
That is all I ask for

Larry

PQpeace

Dwood,
thanks for your comments..

I always like to hear other's experiences about dealers..
These are just MY experiences and my opinions.
Maybe I should remove some of the names ??
I would be thrilled to hear about your favorite dealer ! and how you made your relationship work !

There are some of my customers that I just can't seem to make happy no matter what I do..
I expect those guys to go elsewhere..
But most people are happy with our relationship...That is my goal..

braddick

Larry, with the type of coins you collect you SHOULD be picky! Nothing is more miserable then buying a super high priced coin (like that MS66 Peace dollar) and finding it isn't even close to your expectations.

Just as long as Collectors realize that the grade they are buying is NOT the next grade up. For example, there are reason(s) why that MS66 Peace is not an MS68 or even an MS67.

Allowances must be made WITHIN THE GRADE and coins not rejected because they are not "the next grade up" in quality (or, expectations).

Otherwise an enjoyable pastime turns into a stress inducing miserable experience.

stman

<< <i>Maybe I should remove some of the names ?? >>



I don't think so. Why? You have spoken your opinion in a decent manor. Some people might have dealt with the people you mention and have had different results. Why is it when it's a positive experience collectors have with a well known dealer on here, it's OK to mention who they are. But maybe a 50-50 and some will say you shouldn't mention names. That's politics I guess. But I'm just a grump

PQpeace

STman..
I am not trying to cause any trouble..don't need that..so I removed the names..

And I am sure that there are people who don't like who I like...we are all different...
just my experiences here...
that is what this board is all about ?
Larry

stman

PQpeace, I didn't think you were wanting to cause trouble. And I'm not either, do you think I am.

dwood

Perhaps I overreacted, or perhaps I'm still a little wide-eyed from the "thread of death" yesterday (was that yesterday????.....<blank stare>.........)

Anyway PQ, I meant no offense, honestly. And I have a slight understanding that I am perhaps the exception more than the norm when it comes to buying coins from my dealer. I honestly try to think about it from his side too. We both know what the Gray Sheets say, what the NW reports say, what the population is, etc. So we both have a fairly good idea of what a fair price is. My dealer would probably be considered "small time" among the giants that we see across the Internet today. He really is more of the "Mom and Pop" local dealer than he is a huge, buying, consigning beast, though he does do some of that as well. But he KNOWS my collection, and he WORKS my collection, as much, if not more, than I do. I trust him implicitly. He needs to make a profit, and I want to build my collection. I HONESTLY try to think about BOTH of those facts EVERY TIME I MAKE A PURCHASE. This may blow your mind, especially in todays market, but...

I send him a fixed amount on the first of every month. This is his "discretionary fund." It includes 10% that he pockets, and the remainder is for coins that he will send me. 95% of those now come from shows he attends or deals he makes with other dealers. Is he padding his prices on those items as well? Probably, occasionally, but not much. I'm paying right around Gray Sheet, sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less....but I NEVER have to send a coin back. He knows what I expect, and if he can't find it, we just carry over this month's fund to next month. If I ever did need to send a coin back, there would be no questions asked.

If I order specific coins from him, I'll usually pay for those seperately, so that he still has my entire monthly payment to buy items FOR ME. This gives him a little peace of mind too. He doesn't have to worry about buying something and getting stuck with it. He's using MY money to buy coins he's going to send to ME. He has his own plan for building my collection and he uses that money for what he thinks is important. This works out great for me, because it gives me the opportunity to tinker in other things, like my new love for Jeffersons and Franklins. He's going to LOVE this board for reintroducing me to those. (For the record, my wife hates you all. EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU!!!!)

I know. It is unique. But it shouldn't be. He's honest, and we were honest with each other from the start. At this point, there isn't enough money in any coin deal for either of us to sacrifice that relationship (interestingly, neither my wife nor his understands or cares about coins. We have an agreement that upon the death of one of us, the other will contact the widow and take control of the collection/inventory in order to protect the widow, and the collection. NO FEES WHATSOEVER. We will do this out of respect and appreciation for each other. If the collection needs to be sold, we'll handle that as well.)

Do I buy from others? Sure, just ask around this board (I think I've made 3-4 purchasees just today?). Does he know it? Absolutely! Does he hate it? Absolutely? Has he asked me to stop? Never. He doesn't have to. Because if I buy something "of consequence" he's going to get the first shot at it. If he has it, or can get it, the deal is done. If he can't get it, we discuss who I should get it from, and off one of us goes to make the deal.

Ok, I know, I have a fairy tale situation. And I readily admit that it jades my opinions and perceptions heavily. I guess the worst side-effect (for me) is that I can't stand to hear collectors bashing dealers unless it is warranted and well known. I admit, I assumed some things in your initial post that obviously weren't true, and perhaps I overreacted. Please accept my apologies and know that I honestly meant no disrespect, but perhaps this diatribe of information will help you and others see where I'm coming from.

Wheeewww.......Sorry this was so long

dragon

Thank you for the compliment. Just to clarify, I am not a dealer, or even a wannabe dealer by any stretch, but rather a serious collector that sometimes offers some of my duplicate dates to other collectors here.

dragon