Error or Variety?

dabugler

Good morning all. I used to collect coins as a kid and only recently have started again. I will admit that it was the state quarters that rekindled my interest. I've been doing allot of reading and am trying to become an informed collector. I am confused though by some of the classifications of some coins as to being mint created varieties or errors.

As a collector of modest income, I take great pride in being able to fill an album to complete a series. I understand that the mint creates a slight variation by a change in the design. What I find disturbing is that in order to complete a series I'll have to fork out what I consider big bucks on what to me is obviously an error coin that the mint intentionally didn't change the design of. For example, the 1922 no D or the 3 legged buffalo.

It is my understanding that these coins were created by some foreign matter interferring with the minting process. Doesn't this qualify them as an error? If so, why do the makers of folders and albums treat them the same as the large/small date varieties or when there is a change in the composition of the metal?

At my income, I catch enough grief from my wife while trying to save for the purchase of a key date. Any help would be much appreciated.

"Why wasn't my grandfather a coin collector?"

nwcs

Welcome to the forum. You have raised a number of interesting questions. One book that will explain a lot is at the ANA website and is a book on the minting process and how errors/varieties are created. Link. It goes into more detail than I could in a post. And, like most things, everyone has their take on their legitimacy. The 1922 No D and 3 Legged Buffalos, though, were made after the dies clashed and were heavily polished to fix the clash. That "erased" part of the design. So it wasn't a strikethrough error.

coppercoins

You are correct in that the 1922 "no D" and 3-legged buffalo are minor errors that are common by type of error (grease filled die and die overpolishing, respectively) that somehow caught on with the general collectors then eventually took on legendary status and sell for WAY too much money for what they are.

I posted the correct and accepted definitions for these different types of mint flaws as written and explained in the book NWCS mentioned and was flamed, so I won't get into it again in public. If you want to know the nuances that make each of them different from one another, send me an e-mail and I'll send you the text that explains each of them fully.

dabugler

NWCS, thanks for the link.

Everything I've heard up to this point suggested that those two varieties were created when foreign matter (ie. grease) gummed up the dies. Your explanation would point to an intentional act on behalf of the mint thus creating a variety as opposed to an unintentional error. I will do some more indepth research in order to satisfy my curiousity, although, I don't know if this will help towards convincing my wife that I just can't live without them. I don't have to like it but I may have to live with it.

"Why didn't my grandfather leave me the coins he should have been collecting?

(C.D., thanks, I will email you)

Petescorner

dabugler,

Welcome to the boards! I recently completed a VG-F set of Buffalo Nickels, and by "complete" I mean 64 coins. The 2 holes in my album are for the 8/7-D and the 3 legger. If I were to buy those coins, their price together would be higher than the rest of the collection put together. So, I'm not going to do it. I really wish the album came with out spaces for them, but oh well.

dabugler

Dan,

I feel your pain brother. I can't stand seeing those empty spaces either. A collector once told me he puts a more commen coin in there upside down just to keep from seeing the empty space until he can get a suitable replacement. I tried it and found I was just looking at upside down coins. Oh well, come on lottery!

coppercoins

I'm more or less an "all or none" person. I see it this way:

First of all the 37D 3-leg is an error and shouldn't be considered part of a complete set...period. You might as well include all the die polished years with feather problems, the 3.5 leggers, and all the other minor die error coins people like to attach names to. The 18/7D is a die variety. If you want to include one die variety, why not include them all? There are some really nice, major and minor die varieties out there that the 18/7D alone doesn't come close to representing. A "complete" set of buffalos in this manner would be hundreds of coins...1916 DDO, 1936 DDO, and RPMs/OMMs out the wazoo along with many other DDO/DDR coins. Why JUST the 1918/7D??

dabugler

I sure hope the folks who make the albums don't read your post. Although it could be beneficial to all levels of collectors if they were to offer albums in the generic series form and have a variety/error selection of pages that could be added to the albums for those that are inclined to go that route. That way it becomes the collectors choice on how they setup their albums. I know that there are already blank albums for all the denominations, but, I kind of like the golden lettering that identifies each series. Just a suggestion although it does sound like I'm beginning to whine.

"Dammit Gramps, you could have made it allot easier on me!"

coppercoins

Actually it would be quite impossible to create an album that had all die variety designations included, since nobody knows what "all" is. New die varieties are being discovered in all the different series of US coins. Other die varieties are being deleted because they were found to be broken punches, deterioration doubling, or duplicates of other listings, among many other reasons. Any die variety collection would have to be far too dynamic for the albums. My Lincoln cent set fills five volumes of 3 inch three ring binders with 20 pocket cowens pages, and it is still less than half complete.

In addition, even if it were possible to create an album that was all-inclusive for die varieties I wouldn't put my coins in them. Those albums stink and they tarnish, dull, and stain coins. I'd rather use flips.

dabugler

Wow!, thanks C.D. I just read your e-mail, and, I hadn't realized when posting my first question that I was possibly jumping into a subject that was way over my head and created major contention in past discussions.

All I can say is, as a novice collector, I hold the same interpretations of the topics you described. I just hadn't realized there was so much detail involved. Hopefully not insulting those who have much more experience than myself, I offer this much more simplified interpretation; if the mint intentionally produced it, it's a variety; if it was produced by the result of a non-intentional act, it's an error.

Once again, thanks for stepping up and educating a modest collector who still looks at the coins in his pocket change.

davefperry

My take had been that an error wouldn't pass inspection and go on the slag heap and that a variety would pass and go into circulation. Pretty much what you just said. Whatever definition is used it doesn't seem right that either one should be necessary to complete an album or registry set.

Petescorner

Just to follow up on my previous post. My Dad came across a 3 legged Buffalo Nickel recently and gave it to me as a Christmas present. It is a perfect match for my collection as it is right about VG-F. But since a genuine example of the 3 legger in that grade is worth a couple hundred dollars, we sent if off to NGC with some other coins to get certified. So, even though I will have a filled a hole in my collection (if it comes back as we expect) I actually haven't filled a hole in my album, because the coin will be in a slab!

dabugler

Actually, I was able to fill one of those empty spaces but I'm not sure how I should, ethically, guage my satisfaction level.

About a month ago, I was sitting in one of the local coin shops and browsing through the dealers endless boxes of lincoln cents that he keeps in flip folders. My original intent was to look for some low cost upgrades to some of my earlier dates and to spend about an hour or so talking with him about trends and forcasts. After a couple of minutes, I came across about a dozen 1922's without mintmarks. He told me that they had all been doctored. After checking them all out, I noticed that one of them didn't possess the normal scratches or discolorings around the bottem of the date that the others had. I brought the coin to his attention and he said that all of the coins in that box were priced accordingly.

I continued to examine the coin under magnification, while in the holder, under incandescent then natural light. To my untrained eye, I couldn't find one defacing mark around the date. I told him about my observations and he said, "Hey, if you like it, buy it, but don't try to sell it back to me as a 22 plain". So I did.

After getting it home and taking it out of the holder, I still didn't see any evidence of tampering. I immediately placed it in my album. Now I've got one of those damn holes filled. But do I? To me it's a 1922 with no D.

The way I see it I have the following options:

1. Ask another local dealer. What if it's not! Do I have another empty hole in my album?
2. Send it off to be certified. Could my $8.00 coin suddenly be worth eight bucks plus grading fees?
3. Just accept it as a 1922 without a D filling a hole in an album. I personally like this choice because I have no plans to ever sell my coins and if I did I am generally an honest person.

Just looking for warm fuzzy as I'm leaning towards option three. Am I mis-representing or being dishonest by doing so?

Petescorner

dabugler,

Go to ANACS' website (I believe it's anacs.com) and check their "show schedule." If there's a coin show within reasonable driving distance to where you live that they'll be attending, I'd take it to them for a verbal opinion. I understand their opinions aren't perfect, but I'd probably trust them a little more than the average local dealer. If they say it's "genuine" then put it back in your album and be happy you filled that hole for $8!

dabugler

Dan, thanks for the input. Don't know if I will be able to get to a show any time soon. In the meantime, if I can get the coin to a scanner, I'll post a picture for public scrutiny.

fcloud

Maybe I'm odd, but of the four Buffalo nickels I own--three are uncirculated and the other is the 1937-D 3-legged. I have had the coin for many years and will not part with it. Now, as far as I am concered, it is a mint error because a mint employee overpolished the die (IMO). I would think that the companies that make the holders are doomed if they do and doomed if they don't. The coins you mentioned have been popular for many years, and will probably stay popular. Many collectors want a place to put them in their sets.

Now, I have a 1942/41 Mercury Dime, too. Is this coin a mint error because it was hubbed once as a 1941 die and once as a 1942 die, or a variety?

Maybe there is no right or wrong answer here? There are companies out there that make copy coins of famous and expensive coins. If want to fill a hole, maybe these are an option (I don't know if the ones you are looking for are available yet, but I would think one of these companies will get to them).

dabugler

I agree with your description of the polishing of dies, in that does an error caused by a maintenance act constitutes a variety. I do realize that the examples I stated earlier were most likely the extremes of the debate. From my stand point, I'm two coins away from a circulated set of buffalo's minus the 37D 3 legger. If I complete the series without, should I be content in knowing I've done a good job? I realize it all comes down to personal preferrence but a little exceptance from the community would help towards knowing I've accomplished something.

As far as your 42/41 Merc, to me this is an intentional overstrike performed by the mint which, by my unprofessional definition, qualifies as a variety. Do I want to add it to my personal collection? No, I'm only three coins away from filling that album and it's not one of the empty holes I'm currently staring at.

I do possess enough pride in authentic coins to not resort to the copies you referred to. Although, I'm not beyond throwing a low grade coin in a hole just to stop having to see that void. I can always upgrade later. Come on lottery!

DDR

Debugler,

Don't worry about it. Collect the set as you wish, with or without the varieties or errors. I often do it that way, ignoring the overdates or the D/S's or whatevers. They just don't interest me that much. I consdider my collection complete when I have all the dates and mintmarks.

However... I have to admit that the one exception I made was with my Buffalo nickel collection. I went out and got the 1937-D 3 Leg because I thought it was such a neat and obvious error.

Bottom line, though: do it whatever way you wish.