Raw Coins & The Brooklyn Bridge

matteproof

For some odd reason, the only time I get "buyers remorse" is when I buy a RAW coin. Raw coins just look SOOOOOO different under coin show bad lighting then they do after I've bought them. Scratches and other flaws magically appear AFTER I've bought the coin and look at it under better lighting. Anacs NET grading was created for such moments.

So, I make my ritualistic vow to never buy a raw coin again unless I have pure lighting to view it under. Then, I go to a coin show and promptly break my vow. I still have this pollyanna sense of faith toward other human beings which keeps me naively believing that most people are honest and forthright. Perhaps I need to re-read Calvin's Institutes (the part about "total depravity" comes to mind).

The real "buyers remorse" is not in the coin, but in how so many dealers RARELY reveal the flaws of the raw coin material they offer. I'm not talking about overgrading. I'm talking about unrevealed PROBLEMS with raw coins that can easily be overlooked in a coin show environment. Cmon, how often do those cheap looking "flips" with the staples in them say; "AU but cleaned" or "great detail xf but artificially toned with graffiti on reverse"? Rarely! Those cheap flimsy flips are always scribbled (in bad handwriting) with such flowery words as; "PQ, monster, GEM BU, WOW! color!!! Prooflike, Cameo" and other such numismatically emotional wording.

Is it unfair to say that if a coin is not slabbed in the year 2003 then SOMETHING must be wrong with the damned coin? Should a seller reveal if a raw coin they are selling has been body-bagged numerous times?

So, yet again, the words "buyer beware" come powerfully to mind. The numismatic mantra has always been "buy the coin not the slab." True in theory; provided that the coin is FIRST in a slab!. So, perhaps it would be better if we said; "buy the coin in the slab not the slab." There are no "great deals"; only the illusions of them. Raw coin buying is often like buying the "Brooklyn Bridge" from the guy wearing the checkered blazer. You know, I've bought that bridge a number of times before (and I will likely buy it again and again in the future).

matteproof

FrattLaw

What serendipity, after I just bought a raw coin! One that I already think will be a mistake, but I just couldn't resist!

Should have read your post 10 minutes ago. Damn! I hate EBay!

Great Post, I should print it out and stick it on my computer screen and take it to shows with me.

Michael

stman

Great thread, and I agree with everything you write about.

Except the part you say you have bought the bridge many times and will probably buy it many many more times. Learn from the mistakes and make better judgements. There is no Santa Claus in Numismatics. And as you say no great deals. But I guess many people still think they are going to get that great cheap "rip" when in reality they are the ones getting ripped.

DesertLizard

If it aint ina slab ask yourself why.

If it aint ina PCGS or NGC slab as doubly why.



There is no Santa Claus in Numismatics
Aint that the truth.

coppercoins

I still disagree with the idea that a raw coin is a flawed coin. There are still a lot of people who don't subscribe to slabbing. I have bought a number of decent $50-$100 coins that weren't slabbed and were very nice coins.

I do disagree with buying any coins completely sight unseen, and this includes scans. They are a complete gamble, only take what you plan to lose...but when I am buying at a show or from a dealer I use very scrutinizing discretion when purchasing and always steer clear of slabs - they are almost always overpriced because the coins within the slabs tend to be overgraded.

Russ

matteproof,

You're absolutely right about the lighting at shows. Some dealers are now even using GE Reveal bulbs in the desk lamps clamped to the table. Nothing hides hairlines and haze better than a Reveal.

I bought a little Durabeam flashlight that produces a very harsh and very bright light. Even through the glassine of the 2x2's it will reveal the flaws in a coin when you hold the coin at an angle. Also great for detecting pesky freckle milk spots on proofs in flat packs while they're still in the mint celo.

Russ, NCNE

LucyBop

And I have found many raw GEMS at dealers all across the country..... If more take your stance, then hopefully there will be more GEMs for me to buy!

NumisEd

Uh, uh.....matteproof and DesertLizard, did you guys miss the huge thread regarding Park Ave. and Rick???? Rick bought a $23,000 coin in a PCGS Proof-67 DCAM holder that was HAIRLINED and damaged. No offense, but it does not matter if a coin is raw or certified.

You MUST learn to tell the difference for yourself. If someone on ebay has crappy images and you have ANY doubt, then just turn away. At coin shows, if you don't like the light, then just don't do it.

Patosh

I feel your pain as #@*& said. When I go to a coin show I feel like I am talking to used car salesmen sometimes. I only buy slabbed certified coins-usually. But sometimes the ebay devil jumps up and takes over. I recently submitted 11 gold coins to ANACS for grading that were ebay raw coins that I at least wanted encapsulated. Two came back as cleaned, one cleaned and damaged although the ANACS grader did not make a note what the damage was and one other coin-an 1854 $3 Princess that looked great but came back "NOT GENUINE. STRUCK COPY". I made out on the other coins which went as high as MS64 but I have enough trouble with grading..........how do you determine cleaning and especially how do you detect a great counterfeit?
So I guess I stick to Bowers, Heritage, Teletrade, Ellesmere etc. for my NGC and PCGS slabs with an ANACS once in awhile.

dwood

Devil's advocate:

I often get in a mood to buy raw coins (today being one of those days), and many times even lesser grade, circulated stuff. I remember as a kid dumping a bag of pennies on the table, and then going through them like there was no tomorrow, yet unconscious of tems like "bag marks," fingerprints, MS65, and "whizzed." Getting a chunk of raw ones lets me relive those days, and more often than you'd think, I've run across some real gems that countless others have passed on.

I have several PCGS MS67 and MS68s that I bought raw, or in BU Rolls. I know its a gamble, and as mentioned earlier, I don't spend more than I'm willing to throw away, but you'd be surprised how much excitement you can get from an OBW roll of 57-D Lincolns, or a bag of 30s wheats that contain a key, an error, or a perfectly preserved GEM.

Spend 2$20 on some "crap" every now and then, and you'll spend a WONDERFUL evening remembering why you got into this in the first place

matteproof

Thank you all for your terrific thoughts and comments. It seems there is a consensus that raw coin buying is one of those things that requires proper lighting, mental focus and HONEST seller descriptions. PLAIN and honest descriptions by those who have the benefit of viewing the coin under PROPER lighting and conditions (i.e. sellers) should be a given - not an after thought. Even experienced numismatists RELY upon the descriptions made by Sellers. In addition to common honesty and integrity, the numismatic community itself has always encouraged that such revelations be made; upfront and candidly. The ANA and PNG demand it! Numismatic publications often require it for advertising.

Here's a thought; I was at a coin show. Anacs was set up offering there wonderful collector friendly "free look" of your coins. A somewhat older gentlemen approached the Anacs table with his book full of raw Morgan dollars. He was excited about his collection; "all CHOICE", he cheerfully said. One by one he handed them to Randy Campbell. One by one Randy said; "harshly cleaned, don't slab this one," "artificially toned, some kind of paint on the obverse, I wouldn't slab this one either," "this one has a huge scratch, actually a dig, across Liberty's mane," "this one has some grafitti on it, someones initials actually, I wouldn't slab this one either"; and so it went with a myriad of this mans raw coins. As this little dance was underway, I happened to look over at the gentlemen and I could not help but notice that his profound enthusiasm had turned instantly to SHAME and embarrassment. You see, the fruit of misrepresentation is NOT just economic loss. It's far worse. Misrepresentation causes the deceived party to feel SHAME in addition to loss. This is why so many deceptions are never brought to light. Shame has a way of making it's victims feel degraded, demoralized, and devalued. That is how shame operates. It functions in an atmosphere of abuse and deception. I wonder if the guys who sold this man those RAW Morgans were snickering everytime this gentlemen bought a coin from them?

Russ, I appreciate your great tip on the Durabeam flashlight. I will pick one up for sure. NumisEd commented that slabs can also contain problem coins. This is true, but it is a relatively rare occurrence. PCGS may even back up such a mistake too? It is highly likely that problem coins are more abundant in the RAW state then they are in slabs. Thank you again to all for your great thoughts and input.

matteproof

barberlover

There are still good deals in raw coins, last year at a local minneapolis show i'd seen very little slabed coins that impressed me in the first 2 days of the show, but on sunday, the day many dealers pay space for and don't show up for [which always ticks me off] i'd just about given up looking for nice slabs when a dealer i was talkig to showed me a complete 2 cent piece collection in mint state r & b or brown. He wanted 3600 for the entire set, but the better dates had no eye appeal so i was honost with him and asked him if i could cherry pick his set and he said if the price was right i could. We both agreed that the 67 was a sure 65 r & b that was 90 percent red would slab 65 r & b and i paid a little premium above the 400 grey sheet bid for that date and submitted the coin to p.c.g.s. with the expectaion it would 5 and hopes that because of the quality of the luster and the amount of red it was a shot 6, well i got the 5 but i got a very high end 5 as a raw coin on the last day of a local show.