Real Toning or AT

Lori

I want to purchase this but want to know your opinions first.

Real or AT

Thanks.

Lori

Lori

Back of Coin

airplanenut

Looks like it has black tar on it... have you seen it yourself?

AbesNeighbor

Gorgeous Coin Lori.. I don't know that mych about different types of toning but that coin is beautiful.

Dan

I guess I saw something different.

Lori

I haven't seen it in person. I just purchased it off of ebay and think it is beautiful. I am hoping it is real toning.

Here is the ebay link: eBay Link

Thanks.

Lori

greghansen

I would be about 99.9% sure thats AT.

Dog97

It looks like it has been in a bad album or envelope. I don't think it would pass at a grading service.

nwcs

The reverse looks real to me. It's funny that the flip said MS 63 in the auction picture but the guy said it was MS 64. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is real all the way. I'm going mostly by the way the toning lies in the date and hair. But it could also have some real toning with AT added in.

Placid

I don't know for sure but black is not my favorite color on a coin.
I would pass on it there are plenty of nicer looking toned morgans around.

Russ

<< <i>I would be about 99.9% sure thats AT. >>



Why? It doesn't help those of us just learning this stuff when experienced people just point to a coin and say it's AT without any explanation as to how that conclusion was arrived at.

Personally, and I'm a complete rookie so it really doesn't mean anything, I don't think the coin is AT. The toning is too dark, and I'm wondering why anybody would try to fake it like that. Also, the pattern is very similar to many I've seen holdered, and the toning splashes out on to the rims as it should.

I also think that this coin is going to look much better in person than it does in that scan. I'm seeing wisps of color that normally don't show all that well when done with a scanner.

Russ, NCNE

danglen

The .01% that Greg isn't sure about is my vote for AT. Nothing looks right about it. The colors climb all over the rims, the color within the crevasses in the devices is the same shade of color as that of the surrounding areas, no blending from one color to the next and no continuity of color. Outside of that, it's perfect. Sorry, I'm also of the opinion no reputable grading service would slab it, (unless you dip it first).

Lori

Thanks for that Russ. I agree. I was hoping to have a little insight on the toning of morgans and what possilble could have did this. I just love them and find them beautiful. I bought this believing it was real toning. It doesn't look faked. It looks album toned to me from the reverse. If it is AT how do you go about getting this type of toning with the splashes of color? I am thinking it is more deep purple colored then black. I will be taking a nice photo when I get it and post it again. I thank you for all your help. I am learning and you guys (and girls) are great teachers. Thanks for helping!

Lori

stman

I think it might NG at a service. This may sound harsh but I'm only trying to help.... It looks like you paid a 63 retail price for it. Why take a chance if you are not sure it's real? I see too many people thinking they are getting a "deal" on ebay, and only turns out to be a problem. JMO

Yea, if you buy a slabbed one it will cost you more, but if you buy a bad coin it costs you more also. We all have to take our lumps and bumps I guess. Good luck with it.

dragon

Russ,

FYI......Many coin docs will also AT coins to cover up blemishes and/or their handy work such as hairlines, puttying, tooling, whizzing, MM or date altering, etc. In these cases, they will often try to impart a dark color(s) to try and better mask these problems. Many people are under the impression that the only reason coins docs would AT coins is to try and get a premium for the bright colors, IMO this is not true as many are also done to mask other problems as I've said.


dragon

Placid

<< <i>I think it might NG at a service. This may sound harsh but I'm only trying to help.... It looks like you paid a 63 retail price for it. Why take a chance if you are not sure it's real? I see too many people thinking they are getting a "deal" on ebay, and only turns out to be a problem. JMO

Yea, if you buy a slabbed one it will cost you more, but if you buy a bad coin it costs you more also. We all have to take our lumps and bumps I guess. Good luck with it. >>



Great post, I agree 100%

Steve27

This just doesn't look like toning to me (i.e. the colors look like they were added on). When you get this coin try dipping it in acetone, if the colors come off then it's not toning.

IrishMike

Russ there isn't always a definitive answer for every type of toning. Some AT'd coins are obviously AT, others are not. I talked to a few dealers, one a former grader and showed them four coins. They all agreed that the Franklin I had was AT, why, because they had never seen toning like that on a Franklin before. When I bought it, I suspected that to be the case. The other thing about the Franklin was the toning was the same on both sides, which rarely occurs. Out of the four lib nickels, the consensus was that two were AT even though all four had the same color. The two considered AT'd had colors that didn't blend, they went right from one color to another. Also the comment was made to me that even if they weren't AT, the market wouldn't accept them. I guess one like it has to be slabbed first for that kind of toning to be accepted.

This particular dollar looks to me like it was stored in something with the intention of ATing it and like Dog said probably won't get slab. Indeed it might have been unintentional, but that kind of toning is not common for Morgans and like the libs not market acceptable.

I guess my point is, AT is not a black and white issue, one that sometimes you can tell with certainty that a coin is AT. I think this is the case with this coin.

Russ

<< <i>Many coin docs will also AT coins to cover up blemishes and/or their handy work such as hairlines, puttying, tooling, whizzing, MM or date altering, etc >>



Dragon,

I didn't think of that. You're right, what I had in my head was ATing for pretty colors.

This whole area is completely confusing. One person says that toning should splash on to the rims, another says it shouldn't. One person says that there should be toning breaks around the devices, another says it doesn't matter. "Continuity" of toning is frequently mentioned, yet I see plenty slabbed by PCGS and NGC that have no continuity at all.

I'm lost.

Russ, NCNE

stman

I would agree with IrishMike. Sometimes it's not something that any one person can put their finger on, it might just not look right. And when dealing with a raw coin on Ebay, if it doesn't look right, Pass.

Also, on the flip side is.... if it's a coin in question that most have not seen them tone that way it doesn't mean it's AT, and it could still be slabbed. Everybody has their own opinion of what's real and what's not. I guess if maybe half of people in the know agree then you might be ok.

billiardmaster

AT coins are very common. Even common dates. Don't try to be something your not. (an expert) Buy toned coins in PCGS slabs and relax.
Or buy coins on e-bay and get took real good. There are no bargains out there. I have several end of the roll dollars in PGCS 65.
I sell these for $175..............when I get lucky. Wholesale is only about $70. Mine are not for sale at that price. Best of luck.
Rusty

Dog97

Russ asks why:
See the outline of a non-toned area that goes around the face across the nose and into the field and the outlined area that goes from the back of the cap to UNIM? That's almost a sure sign it's been immersed in liquid or exposed to dampness, whether it was in a flood, in a damp basement next to the waterheater or whatever.
Again I'm not saying it's AT or not but I'll say it probably wouldn't pass at a grading service, looks like bad album tone that's not market acceptable. Remember that body bags have nothing to do with the tone being real or not but rather being Market Acceptable.

greghansen

Wasn't trying to be secretive with first post. Was at working and just fired off an opinion in respose to initial post saying "I'm considering this...what do you think". Now I see Lori was posting that the coin was bought, just as I was posting my initial opinion. I will post the non-professional basis for my opinion after I finish dinner. Guess there is no hurry now.

Lori

Well, I guess I learned my lesson. Stick with buying slabbed toned coins until I can tell the difference. It is a good thing this didnt cost me a fortune. Thanks for the info. Very confusing but someday it will all make sense I'm sure.

Lori

jom

<< <i>Stick with buying slabbed toned coins until I can tell the difference. >>



I'm not trying to give you a hard time but you might want to "tell the difference" before you buy ANYTHING, slabbed or not. I know some people won't agree with this but just because it's in a slab doesn't really guarentee anything. This is how I personally approach things, learn all you can BEFORE you spend a dime. Just a thought....

jom

Russ

Lori,

It's tuition expense. I've paid plenty along the way.

Russ, NCNE

stman

Lori..... It's good to see you are willing to learn. I see about when you asked for opinions it looks like you already bought it. At least you mentioned you aren't going to do it in the future. I see soooo many people ask for opinions, then when we say that we feel it's a bad coin they buy it anyway.

I would agree with Dog, while it may not be blatant AT it might not make the cut for other reasons. Like maybe environmental damage from the way it was stored.

danglen

One thing to remember is that there are a lot of AT coins in older PCGS, NGC and ANACS slabs. The coin doctors are always trying to stay one step ahead of the grading services. So just because it's in a holder, doesn't always mean it's real.

One of the really neat experiences we had in the "Detecting Counterfeit and Altered US Coins" class at ANA Summer camp last year, was we got to ask a coin doctor questions. The way it worked was we all met after lunch in the Executive Director's office, and Bob Campbell (immediate past president of the ANA and a fanatic on the subject of AT) got a coin doctor on the speaker phone for us. No names were mentioned, so we didn't know who we were speaking with, but we got to ask any questions we wanted. He compared himself to an "art restorer", and said he drew the line at "moving metal". But according to him, he had a degree in chemistry, and could AT coins like a good thing.

After that we went back to class for a slide show, and had to spot the original toning from the AT coins. After a while it got pretty easy. In bag toning, there is generally a color progression on naturally toned coins, from yellow, to magenta, to cyan (what is refered to as rainbow toning), and in many cases that pattern can repeat itself two or three times on the same coin. In end roll and album toning you don't have the same color progressions, but you can generally see a difference in the shade of color between the high points of the devices and the crevasses. Naturally toned coins don't have blotches of different colors. Colors tend to flow from one into the next without any sharp line of demarcation.

Also, there is a big difference between color schemes on silver coins as opposed to other metals. We saw some great example of that on some Jeferson nickels people posted her in the past couple of days.

Coin doctors can control what colors will appear on the coin, but they can't control HOW they appear on the coin. Mother Nature can and does.

For those who asked for a how and why, I hope this helps.

greghansen

Dog97's points are well taken. Since AT vs. NT is all opinion (by graders or others) the real marketability depends on whether yours is the CONSENSUS opinion or not. If the consensus believes the coin to be AT, that consensus affects the marketability of the coin, and its probably not going to get slabbed. The only other points I would add beyond those already given (or to elaborate further) is that the obverse toning both in front of the face and behind the cap have areas where the toning ends VERY ABRUPTLY. Most NT since it occurs over long period of times gradually fades over the affected area of the coin.

I also am suspicious of the fact that there is very significant toning on both sides of the coin, and yet the types of toning are quite different. You have concentric toning on the reverse which could occur naturally in an album, but then there is the very intense yet splotchy toning on the obverse.

Finally, the obverse toning covers some of the stars and/or raised areas but not others, in no discernable pattern that can be explained naturally.

In response to a question as to why someone would try to fake a coin in this manner, I think the obvious answer is that they wouldn't. Not all (in fact I imagine few) AT coins turn out the way the Doctor first intended. This coin may very well be part of someones 'learning curve' as they work towards an advanced Coin Doctorate (C.D.) Degree.

I think its not improper to observe that even if it were NT, the darkness of the toning on this coin is beyond what most would consider appealing. At least IMO. Cheers.

IrishMike

Thanks for sharing danglen. Lori you shouldn't be disappointed. If when you receive the coin you like no harm. I have more than a few AT coins and I still like them. Even experts including graders get fooled.

michael

for me and i hate to give opinions on coins i cant see sight seen but for me it is AT

see how the crayon type colors float on the top surface of the coin? well this to me is a coin that was toned in under an hour also the colors are not "right" never seen a real original toned coin toned after many years appear with colors like these

also see how "fast" i mean quick the colors are on the obverse like this coin didnot take its time getting these colors? like the toining just immediately happened like you dropped a glass of liquid on the floor? this coin looks like the toning was instantly dropped on the coin



sincerely michael

michael

but as amynhave mentioned on here the bottom line is currently in this market at the presnt time this coin is not market acceptable

now from what i have seen people buying like 40,000 1960's lincoln cents and coins worth hundreds if not thousands in certian comapnies holders yet broken out of these holders the coins are worth less than 10% than if they were still in their respective holders............

i guess nothing seems to surprise me anymore

and who knows what will be rare and desirable and accetable tomorrow?????

lets all put coins on hold for a day and go to the all you can eat KFC kentucky fried chicken lunch buffet!!

sincerely michael

Russ

<< <i>Naturally toned coins don't have blotches of different colors. >>









Those are all PCGS slabbed. See why this is so confusing for us newbs?

And the toning pattern on that last one is actually pretty similar to this one that I posted about a couple days ago:



Russ, NCNE

kaleidoscopic

I think its AT. Someone prior said stick to slabbed coins. WRONG! If you don't know what you're buying, you are asking for headaches. A slab is no guarantee for toning.

They make mistakes when grading, slabbing, etc. Don't rely on their knowledge. Use your own. Don't be in a hurry to buy what you aren't familiar with. Learn. Look at many coins. Mint sets. Talk to other coin collectors who enjoy tones.

Why buy the coin and THEN ask? Kscope

eagle7

Im turning over a new leaf. The toning is questionable. QT. That is what PCGS calls it when they return it in a bodybag. This one if sent there will return in a bodybag with a check mark by QT. One thing no one has pointed out yet is this. Lots of people out there selling on EBAY know about the grading services. If they had a beautiful coin that was marketable for a good profit and it would slab, they would slab it. If I were going to buy raw toned coins on EBAY it would have to be from someone with a superb reputation like Texas Bullion Traders or someone in his league. Then if you dont like it when you see it in person you can just send it back for a full refund. As far as how someone can do this type "Artificial Toning" into your browser. That would give you a good start.

danglen

Russ,
I don't have a problem with any of the four images you posted as being real. When I said blotchy, I meant there is no melding of color between one color and another. The four you show all flow. Also, if you look at the letters and crevasses, you will see a different shade of color than that of the immediately surrounding areas or letters. These are all signs of natural toning. I'm not saying they're natural toning because they're in PCGS holders. I'm saying they're natural because they fit the criteria for beautiful, naturally toned coins. You have some real beauties there!

Russ

<< <i>I don't have a problem with any of the four images you posted as being real. >>



Danglen,

When I posted the fourth one a couple days ago, you said unequivocally that it was artificially toned. It's actually the only one of the four that is mine (raw, that I bought at a show last weekend). The others are ones I plucked off eBay in my effort to try and learn this stuff.

EDIT: I'm not trying to put you on the spot here, just trying to get at least a minimum handle on this stuff.

More confused than ever,

Russ, NCNE

danglen

Russ,

I must have had more Tequila Rose than I thought I was having. Did you post images of both sides of the coin? I ask you that because this side looks ok to me. Maybe this is why coins can jump a couple of points from one submission to the next. I sure don't mean to be ambivalent and would really like to see your previous thread again just for my own peace of mind. Failing that, I guess I'll break out the Tequila Rose again.

Russ

Danglen,

Yep, I posted both sides. The reverse might be what brought you to the conclusion that it was AT. Here's the thread:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=159790

The reverse does seem to be more "abrupt" than the obverse, but if rotated, the toning pattern seems to follow that on the obverse.

I think the strong blue on the left side of the reverse is what puts it in the questionable category. But, I've seen plenty in PCGS slabs that, at least to my inexperienced eye, seemed just as questionable.

Russ, NCNE

danglen

Russ,
You're right. It was that blue patch under the eagles right wing and the abrupt demarcation in the color changes that did it for me. Once I was fixated on that, nothing else mattered. But the obverse looks ok to me

Russ

Danglen,

If you look closely at the large scan of the reverse, the demarcation isn't quite as abrupt as it first appears. That white between it and the eagle's wing makes it appear more so than it actually is. The blue is fading in to the wing a bit. And, it is no more abrupt than the third coin I posted above (at least not to my eye).

Russ, NCNE

danglen

Russ,

Just spent five minutes staring at the reverse image. No matter how hard I try, it still comes up AT for me. Sorry. In my original post I did say that outside of the splotchiness that made me call it AT, the color looked good And if I was only looking at the obverse, I would have no problems in calling it real (which I did). Having said all that, I certainly don't claim to be the ultimate authority on the subject, but in the interests of not getting burned, I have tried to learn as much as I can about ATing and how the process appears on the coins. I guess the bottom line is a lot like any other type of collecting. If you like, go for it.

Dog97

never mind

Russ

Danglen,

Thanks.

Russ, NCNE