alert: Informatiuion needed from ACG customers and ex-ACG dealers
iras4
Posts: 300
To defend an action started against a well-known dealer and numismatist, I would like e-mails from past ACG (Accugrade) customers and dealers who have had a less than satisfactory experienced with ACG slabbed coins. I am NOT the defendant in this case.
I've been out of town for a few days and when I returned I saw my request for information from ex-Accugrade dealers and Accugrade customers has permutated to: "Hager goes on the offensive" on the rec.collecting.coins newgroup.
I have no knowlege about ANY of this! I am simply gathering information for a fellow dealer who is preparing to answer formal charges brought by Accugrade.
This dealer merely answered a question by a collector about what he, as a dealer, thought of Accugrade and the potential for resale of coins slabbed by Accugrade (ACG). The summons and complaint arose out of the collector's giving the reply to Hager.
The dealer does NOT want the complaint to be withdrawn. He WANTS it to go forward. After all, HE has been defamed by Accugrade and he wants this case to proceed to a conclusion.
I now have a lot of information from former Accugrade collectors as well as a few from ex-Accugrade dealers. I really would like MORE information from dealers to strengthen the defense even further. To repeat, I am NOT the defendant in this case.
A few wrote that they are suspicious of my motives and even implied that I would turn over these responses to Accugrade for the $100 "bounty" he is purported to be paying for e-mail defaming Accugrade. NOTHING is further from the truth! The responses are being forwarded to the defendent and he will be asking for affadavits and/or declarations on those responses he deems most noteworthy.
Please help if you can with information. The defendant is not pressing for a legal defense fund, although it was grand of some to offer. It is this dealer's integrity that prompts him to press on.
Do we want the TRUTH to be silenced by those that would threaten lawsuits? I don't.
Please e-mail information to:
iras4@aol.com
Thank you.
Ira
I've been out of town for a few days and when I returned I saw my request for information from ex-Accugrade dealers and Accugrade customers has permutated to: "Hager goes on the offensive" on the rec.collecting.coins newgroup.
I have no knowlege about ANY of this! I am simply gathering information for a fellow dealer who is preparing to answer formal charges brought by Accugrade.
This dealer merely answered a question by a collector about what he, as a dealer, thought of Accugrade and the potential for resale of coins slabbed by Accugrade (ACG). The summons and complaint arose out of the collector's giving the reply to Hager.
The dealer does NOT want the complaint to be withdrawn. He WANTS it to go forward. After all, HE has been defamed by Accugrade and he wants this case to proceed to a conclusion.
I now have a lot of information from former Accugrade collectors as well as a few from ex-Accugrade dealers. I really would like MORE information from dealers to strengthen the defense even further. To repeat, I am NOT the defendant in this case.
A few wrote that they are suspicious of my motives and even implied that I would turn over these responses to Accugrade for the $100 "bounty" he is purported to be paying for e-mail defaming Accugrade. NOTHING is further from the truth! The responses are being forwarded to the defendent and he will be asking for affadavits and/or declarations on those responses he deems most noteworthy.
Please help if you can with information. The defendant is not pressing for a legal defense fund, although it was grand of some to offer. It is this dealer's integrity that prompts him to press on.
Do we want the TRUTH to be silenced by those that would threaten lawsuits? I don't.
Please e-mail information to:
iras4@aol.com
Thank you.
Ira
Dealer/old-time collector
0
Comments
<< <i>The dealer does NOT want the complaint to be withdrawn. He WANTS it to go forward. After all, HE has been defamed by Accugrade and he wants this case to proceed to a conclusion. >>
Then whoever he may be, he needs to have his head examined.
The cost, diversion of attention from his core business, time and stress are not worth it. If he claims to have been defamed by someone who supposedly has little if any credibility in the industry, the trade off is by no means worth the effort.
This is going to turn into one giant "he said/she said" and other supposed "bad experiences" have nothing to do with the matter at hand.
Going to court doesn't guarantee truth or justice. Anyone considering wasting their time on this, or potentially putting themselves in the line of fire by recounting what they or others perceive to be bad experiences should think more than twice. Affidavits will hold no weight in court without a supporting deposition and at trial testimony. Further, these "experiences" may have nothing to do with the matter before the court.
All of the initial enthusiasm and sabre rattling taking place now is going to turn into one tiresome, expensive journey.
As years go by and folks are bemoaning ever having gotten involved in this, remember you heard it here first.
respectfully submitted from an unbiased third party perspective,
sf
I think that anyone who is sued should stand tall and firm against any frivilous suit by ACG. I predict that the case will be dropped, whether the defendant apologizes or not.
I'm not sure they are looking for a financial score, as mush as they may be looking to have folks think twice before they start slamming AGC. It's a tired old cliche, but I believe it to be be true, that when people sue each others, the only winners are the attorneys.
<< <i>Text >>
The defendant is both prominent and committed to professionalism in the hobby. His reputation is peerless and no settlement is possible, at least from his perspective. If Mssrs Hager want to drop the suit, that's THEIR prerogative, but the defendant has NO plans to try to work anything out. He has been accused and maligned and he wants this to go forward.
I do not agree that he needs his head examined. I admire him for his upstanding position and it would be a sorry day if people are silenced about their righteous opinions.
Ira
Since you just said this:
<< <i>I'm not sure they are looking for a financial score, as mush as they may be looking to have folks think twice before they start slamming AGC. >>
Than perhaps you might understand better than you indicated when you said this:
<< <i>The cost, diversion of attention from his core business, time and stress are not worth it. >>
This dealer is not "thinking twice" and, apparently, not backing down. If ACG's goal in these things is as you stated in the first quote, than they will continue to achieve that goal every time if nobody is willing to stand firm in the face of the threat.
Russ, NCNE
If there is one thing I know about how this is shaping up, it is that at least one, and most likely both parties are going to sorry they ever got this thing going.
Sorrier are going to be folks who involve themselves and have nothing to gain.
Happiest of all will be two groups of attornyes who are going to collect a very minimum of six figure fees and will be assuring their clients that they will hit one out of the park in court.
When the clients confront them with these assurances after this is all over, they can expect an answer along the lines of "you rolled the dice, you lost".
Followed by "do you have my check?"
Winning a case has a lot more to do than making a point in court. The number of people who have won cases in court and never collected five cents is significant. And when you go to court as the good guy, be prepared to have any number of issues get dragged out of the woodwork as a result, in order to make you the bad guy.
If people would stop foolishly rushing to attorney's every time they think they have been slighted, and those who have been perceived to have been doing the slighting would wake up, there would be a lot more unemployed attorney's (a good thing) and a lot more disposable income to spend on building great coin collections (also a good thing).
These opinions come from experience. If you think otherwise, you've never had to fight a case in court.
<< <i>Sorrier are going to be folks who involve themselves and have nothing to gain. >>
The entire hobby and all those who love it have something to gain by neutralizing ACG's constant threats.
<< <i>If people would stop foolishly rushing to attorney's every time they think they have been slighted >>
This dealer didn't run to an attorney because he was slighted. He has been served with a suit and, instead of rolling over, he's chosen to stand up, not just for himself, but for all. He should be congratulated, admired and respected for his guts.
<< <i>These opinions come from experience. If you think otherwise, you've never had to fight a case in court. >>
I do think otherwise, and I have had to fight a case in court - and, I would do it again.
Russ, NCNE
80% of the collectors and dealers know which grading service they prefer..The market will take care of poor grading services over time if there are any.
<< <i>This is not worth any kind of court battle unless the mentioned dealer is losing business because of some accusation. >>
Again, this dealer did NOT initiate the court action. He is defending himself against an action initiated by ACG. If it were the dealer who had started the fight, than I could see some justification to the "it isn't worth it" argument. But, that is not the case here.
Russ, NCNE
There is obviously more going on here between ACG and the dealer. Why would a third party want to get involved in a personal fight? It just doesn't make sense.
iras4, your request is much to general. sounds like you will end up with much irrelevant testimony for your "undisclosed" friend who has been "defamed" by acg. how? what was the defamation? be specific!
K S
<< <i>The entire hobby and all those who love it have something to gain by neutralizing ACG's constant threats. >>
I disagree. If AGC is what people around here claim it to be, then ACG and their constant threats would be rightfully ignored. I don't pay them any mind, they don't bother me a bit. If you don't like their products, don't buy them. If you don't like the way they conduct themselves, ignore them. If you think are out to "protect" the unknowing, start with the Coin Vault hacks on TV - their statements, captured on videotape, do more harm to this hobby than a slab company could ever do.
<< <i>This dealer didn't run to an attorney because he was slighted. He has been served with a suit and, instead of rolling over, he's chosen to stand up, not just for himself, but for all. He should be congratulated, admired and respected for his guts. >>
I fully understand that, and in your rush to thump your chest and rattle your sword, you missed the point. If the company in question wants to sue a dealer because of something he perceives that dealer said - that's their right to do so. If the case is without merit, that'll be determined soon enough. It is also that dealer's right to defend himself. I am in no way encouraging the dealer to give in under pressure. It's just with all the skirt flapping going on about how this giant suit that is going to be defended by gathering testimony from anyone who has had a problem is all bullsh*t. This sounds like a bunch of ninth graders all prepping for a big fight "up on the hill" after school, all being egged on by a few who may or may not have an agenda.
<< <i>I do think otherwise, and I have had to fight a case in court - and, I would do it again. >>
I'm thinking you're caught up in the heat of the immediate moment, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion. By all means you should dive in, file sworn affidavits, give depositions, testify in court, contribute to the defense fund and make it a mission. I am guessing when the smoke clears, you'll be sorry you did.
Yes, its sad.
<< <i>There is obviously more going on here between ACG and the dealer. Why would a third party want to get involved in a personal fight? It just doesn't make sense. >>
abe:
let's not cloud this with logical thinking for goodness sake. Let's just all blindly send in stories about AGC.
<< <i>the crux of this tiresome argument continues to be the concept that acg can be "right" or "wrong" about grades. this is utterly vapid nonsense. it would be foolish to respond to ira's blanket request for the simple reason that it asks for documentation of "less than satisfactory experience" with acg slabbed coins is so nebulous. ridiculous! if you are dissatisfied with the grade, in layman's terms: TOO BAD. acg has as much right to their grading opionins as you do yours.
iras4, your request is much to general. sounds like you will end up with much irrelevant testimony for your "undisclosed" friend who has been "defamed" by acg. how? what was the defamation? be specific!
K S >>
I am as specific as I have been instructed to be. I cannot reveal details of the case here that might prove useful to the plaintiff or detrimental to the defendant.
I would LOVE to hear from more dealers who formerly handled inventory in ACG and have a private e-mail about their experieces. There must be MORE of them lurking and reading this forum's messages.
Ira
When the clients confront them with these assurances after this is all over, they can expect an answer along the lines of "you rolled the dice, you lost". Followed by "do you have my check"?
I can offer only one comment to what I've read so far. The actual comment by the lawyer after the case was over would be..."thank you for the check". No rightous lawyer is going to go to trial without a trial retainer in hand! Cheers.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>[I am as specific as I have been instructed to be. I cannot reveal details of the case here that might prove useful to the plaintiff or detrimental to the defendant. >>
by the time the plantif and defendant move along in this case, there will be no unrevealed details. It's why we have statutes regarding disclosure, to avoid and prevent "trial by ambush".
"I've said all I can say about it, just send me your damaging testimony in writing"
<< <i>I am as specific as I have been instructed to be. I cannot reveal details of the case here that might prove useful to the plaintiff or detrimental to the defendant. >>
if that is as specific as you were instructed to be, you ought to have declined! this type of nonsense just stirs the mud up off the bottom of the pond. witch-hunts like this do absolutely zilch to maim acg's business or rep. if this alleged 3d party really wants help, have him take out a public ad & ask for it. this sneaky, slithering roundabout way of getting "evidence" is, like i said, tiresome, & accomplishes nothing.
if you want to attack acg, base it on solid evidence, statistics, etc., demonstrate losses, etc. why bother with hearsay, gossip, rumor, etc? & "evidence" provided by folks on an anonymous forum ain't worth squat.
K S
I'm sure glad I rarely post for any assistance if this is the kind of reception that someone like Ira recieves for trying to help out someone. Ira is a class act and has earned the right to be treated as such.
If you don't want to take part or assist him so be it. Why continue to attack Ira?? I fail to see the point. You may not like the way Ira is going about this or soliciting for assistance but why post it on here. Email him or PM him. He's trying to do something for the GOOD of the hobby. If you want to continue buying ACG then by all means continue to do so.
If this person that is being sued wants to spend boatloads of money to defend himself and stand up for what he believes, who are any of you to belittle someone for that?
some of you guys are really starting to piss me off.
Perhaps that is what he is trying to do. I would imagine that he will have to wade thru quite a bit of chaff to find the few useful kernels. Fortunately, this forum is a good place to gather chaff.
Tell Ira your sad stories.
Ray
That is if in fact the rumors are correct.
Michael