Where do you go for raw vintage cards?

BillBob · January 21, 2003 4:34PM

I just got through reading the post on "would you rather have a bunch of 8s or a few 9s?" and it really got me thinking about raw cards. I have not bought a raw card in many years because of the "tampered" cards I have gotten. But I really do miss the thrill of getting a card graded and "testing" myself.

I would like to know more about reputable dealers that will guarantee a card is "gradable". In addition, if any go to card shows on the west coast (L.A. area preferably). I am only interested in cards from the 50s and 60s that are relatively high grade.

Thanks in advance to all who respond be it helpful or not.

mikeschmidt · January 21, 2003 9:15PM

Unfortunately the one or two places I still go I try and keep on the down-low. With so few quality raw dealers from which to find material -- I don't want to compromise one of the only areas in which I can still find vintage cards worthy of an 8 (Even if I pay an 8 price for the card....)

MS

FB · January 21, 2003 9:29PM

BillBob,

Being an eastcoaster, I'm not going to be able to help much. But, it looks like you might be in the LA area. If thats the case then the Hollywood Park show is probably your best bet to hooking up with some good raw dealers in your area. Next one is scheduled from Feb 7-9. Good luck!

Basilone · January 21, 2003 9:34PM

Im not real keen on buying raw from a dealer who also sells PSA on eBay or at a show. If the card is so "gradable"...then why havent they gotten graded themselves. Also, at some of the smaller shows...most of the stuff that is gradeable is picked over by the other dealers even before you walk into the show.

John

norty · January 21, 2003 10:21PM

Just a quick response to John, I sell graded on E-Bay and raw at shows but I think you'd find a lot of gradeable material in my books at shows. When I submit, I take very very few chances. Mistakes, especially on early to mid 60's and up commons can be expensive in the long run. Also, there are many times when I just won't submit cards if there appears to be no market for them. For example, today I had 5 1969 Topps commons in 9 end without bids for the second straight time (all were started at 70%of SMR). I am not likely to submit those again for a while.

While my ultimate consumer is someone putting nice raw sets together, I think a number of guys from the Registry have done OK finding material in the grade they desire out of my books at shows.

uniship · January 21, 2003 10:25PM

At the national in Chicago, I saw dozens of hardcore set builders (I assume) going through thousands of raw - mostly 70's sets it seemed. They went through them for several hours at a time. I have a feeling that sight will be a rare one in future years.

jackstraw · January 21, 2003 11:05PM

norty, if you have any raw 76's please email me.

thanks

FB · January 21, 2003 11:08PM

Oh - great going Joe!

I was hoping to be the only one going through the books at the next Fort Washington show. If you keep pointing out that you have great cards at super prices - then thats not going to happen!

Boy... I'm feeling sorry for myself already...

norty · January 21, 2003 11:17PM

Frank:

I'm sure we can save a fewhundred cards for you! Thanks for the kind words. I'll see you at the Fort (I would suggest not showing up late though)!

Basilone · January 21, 2003 11:18PM

<< <i>I sell graded on E-Bay and raw at shows but I think you'd find a lot of gradeable material in my books at shows. When I submit, I take very very few chances. Mistakes, especially on early to mid 60's and up commons can be expensive in the long run. >>

Joe-

I guess there are a couple of ways to look at this as a consumer. First...the items that you do have on eBay are probably very strong for the grade. Secondly, I take from this is that..yes...there may be gradable cards...but the "cant miss" commons are already pulled.

Am I reading this correctly? In regards to 60's commons, Ive found a lower opening bid might induce bid activity.

Regardless....Im sure I will be buying stuff off you through eBay over the next year..so keep those 9's coming.

(Please PM me if you have any 1965 PSA 9's)

John

BBCI · January 21, 2003 11:25PM

I have to agree with MS, I have a couple of sources for raw material that I would hate to reveal ...most of us are probably thinking the same folks

Anyway, IMHO there are really only two sources for raw material 1) unopened wax/vending, 2) raw cards/sets sitting in peoples attics/basements. I think the unopened stuff pre-1973 is pretty much dried up - although I did see a 1962 wax go for 17K in the Mastro auction. Ouch. I would rather have the whole PSA 8 set for 33K. That leaves the raw cards/sets that seem to find their way into dealers hands. Most dealers will grade (Steve Pekovich just did that for a 62 set he had) and only a few will make available to the rest of us. It is tough, and getting tougher.

I went to a local card shop that had a pretty good inventory of 50s and 60s over the last 2 years (from walk-ins). It was all gone. Even the low grade stuff. This past fall I went to two major East Coast Shows, and looked at nearly every 62 and 63 available. I found two 62s and six 63s worthy of eights. I know of one guy who has a partial case of 70 wax, but he said he would die with it under his bed. I do have a few uncles that are getting up their in age

....but their collections are small.

I feel like we are a bunch of 49'ers....."go west son, their is gold in them hills". Raw card "finds" are the stuff of legend; we may go a lifetime without ever experiencing that tearful joy of stumbling upon some vintage gems. I did once...but that is a story for another day.

Don

anjcollection · January 22, 2003 12:20AM

Matt over at Beverly Hills BBC Shop (don't let the name mislead you on the prices), has a TON of vintage stuff that's ungraded. I used to live in LA and he always was able to help me with my 1950 Bowmans and 1959 Topps. I haven't been there in a few years, but even when the PSA craze was starting, he didn't bother carrying any. I know he uses eBay, but he gets new material all the time so he doesn't always grade them himself. He knows the grade of cards so he's fair with his prices.

Don't bother getting anything ungraded at the Frank and Sons shows in Pomona. Actually, if you want vintage stuff, don't even bother going. Marion (marayasportscards.com) has a bunch of vintage stuff but you'll usually pay a premium. Nice lady to deal with though, very friendly.

Haven't been to a WCC show in a while (Hollywood Park). Some of the guys from Colorado show up every once in a while and they carry a ton of raw vintage stuff (though not always high end).

Hope that helps!

mrc32 · January 22, 2003 12:55AM

This is a good topic, but it begs the question what are you looking for? Early 50s or 60s? And how perfect do you want it?

I am putting together a raw 1954 set. I found many great raws a couple of years back, but over the last couple of months it has been harder and harder to find good stuff. I am not a stickler on condition as some of the people on these boards. I don't mind a card that is 60/40 or has very minor corner wear-- no creases!

With my 1960 set that I have begun only in the last few months, you can still buy good commons for a buck or two that are in really nice shape-- on ebay.

I suspect the person who said raw stuff is going to get harder and harder to find is right. That is mainly because there are probably lots of people like me who are satisfied with and EX+/NM type card and are completing sets.

The other question is card tampering. I have encountered only a couple instances of bidding on a card on ebay and receiving it only to examine it myself and find that it has been cut or colored. It happens. But the vast majority of raw stuff I get has been pretty good. But I say this with two disclaimers-

1)I don't send my cards to get graded so there is no way to know for sure(even though I have collecting on and off since 87)
2)I only buy cards on the lower end-- commons, lower priced stars that are plentiful on ebay. I would never buy a card that would cost in the hundreds and hundreds of dollars on ebay, with hopes of getting a 8 and retiring on the beach. But then I collect- not invest in cards.

Thats really what it comes down to. I buy raw stuff because I enjoy the way it looks and feels to add to my set-- so having a pristine card doesn't add that much to the set-- its just one card(star or not)-- and there is no need to pay the house payment for it.

My two cents worth..

anjcollection · January 22, 2003 12:59AM

PS. And not to deter you from buying ungraded cards, here's what recently happened to me...

Trimmed card

crazysc · January 22, 2003 1:03AM

I usually go out into my warehouse and dig around a little for raw vintage...

Seriously, there's still stuff out there - I just bought 25,000 vintage cards from 64-73, mostly right from vending. But it's definately getting much tougher to find - I wonder if/when we'll reach a critical mass. What will happen then, when there's no longer a significant amount of stuff to be graded? Either prices will shoot up as people chase the few cards out there, or people will become discouraged and stop collecting. Hopefully, it'll be the former.

rbeaton · January 22, 2003 1:28AM

<< <i>I usually go out into my warehouse and dig around a little for raw vintage...

>>

Yeah, you and gaspipe. Unfortunately for the rest of us, it's a little tougher...

Robert

thegemmintman · January 22, 2003 1:55AM

<< <i>Either prices will shoot up as people chase the few cards out there, or people will become discouraged and stop collecting >>

You may get a few drop out collectors, but prices will shoot up. There is a finite amount of raw vintage out there that will "run out" one day.

toppsgun · January 22, 2003 3:16AM

I have several "sources" of raw cards I buy from on a regular basis. And those sources are drying up. But there is no way in this universe I'm going to tell anyone what & where these sources are. It's not that it's a big secret, I just don't want to invite any more competition than is necessary.

In the future, the best "finds" will come from completed sets and other collections from the literally scores and scores of people who have no intention of ever getting their cards graded. Someday, maybe they'll sell & hopefully to me.

I've bought several 60's-era complete sets, 100% ungraded, since I re-entered the hobby in 1990. I then upgrade the junk card-by-card and wait for the grading specials to come along. I have complete sets (60's) that I never plan to grade, but I'm sure there would be a large percentage of 7's and 8's if I ever decide to sell them.

mrc32 · January 22, 2003 3:45AM

I think the people who actually believe that all the good looking raw cards have been graded or will be graded in the next 10 years is crazy. Topps produced tens of thousands of each card....a good chunk were thrown away, but how many of each card has actually been graded...a hundred, maybe two hundred for the late 70's issue...

dude · January 22, 2003 3:46AM

Finding high-end raw cards at shows is very tough these days. The January Tri-Star show in Houston was a near disaster. Three years ago it was like fishing out of a barrel. I think the good news is that many mid '60s to late '70s PSA 8 common cards can be won on eBay at near grading cost depending on the year and population.

Basilone · January 22, 2003 5:47AM

<< <i>I think the good news is that many mid '60s to late '70s PSA 8 common cards can be won on eBay at near grading cost depending on the year and population. >>

Thats bad news for dealers looking for a healthy profit margin by selling on eBay though.

Nuyauwka · January 22, 2003 6:11AM

I feel the supply at that price will soon dry up, yes there will always be a few around, but I can't see why a dealer or collector would invest a grading fee and risk of getting lower grades to break even. If cards are consistently selling for $6-7.00's, there is no incentive to grade the cards. Then the supply goes down , the demand goes up , price goes up, more incentive to grade cards. I think the drop in prices now are due to the grading specials and the ecnomy, when these heavy volume dealers realize there cards are break even at best , you won't see them for sale until they again realize a profit. Just my opinion.

BillBob · January 22, 2003 11:52AM

Thanks to everyone for posting. It sounds like I will just be going to the Hollywood Park show and look around. I have been to this show many times, but I have always walked right by the ungraded cards.

My needs are small and my budget even smaller. I have no intention of changing from buying graded cards, I just thought it would be fun to buy a few ungraded and submit them. Cards for my registry sets have to be graded because I cannot afford to "experiment" much.

I would probably only buy ungraded cards that I just found nice to look at. Any 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, or 60 topps. 1959 Duke snider or anything else that catches my eye.

Thanks again. It's always a pleasure.

gemint · January 22, 2003 3:59PM

Well it looks like I just lost a source for high grade raw vintage. I depleted his inventory and he is now on board with the grading craze. I'll miss him because he sold me a '73 Mays, Seaver, Brock, '74 Winfield, '72 Seaver and '76 Munson that all turned out 9s plus tons of 8 quality material for half Beckett. I also had picked up several mid 70s vending sets from him. Looks like I'll have to start searching again for a new source to replace him.

Where do you go for raw vintage cards?

Comments