Crackouts and Inserts

DesertLizard

I have read or overheard people bragging about how many slab inserts they have accumulated.

My question is why not send them in to the grading company so the pops are more accurate?

Out of whack pops serve no one I would think.

fcloud

Maybe some people like to collect inserts, while others like to collect coins.

Whitewashqtr

The reason is that these people could be more aware of the lower pop report and therefore buy coins cheaper. If a pop is lowered by 10 examples, and only the person with the inserts knew about it, then that person could pick up a coin cheaper than its true population would warrant.

danglen

If the grading services paid a "bounty" for inserts, they would probably get more inserts back. I'm not totally convinced they really care what their Pop reports say. Just MHO....

Whitewashqtr

Good idea.. say $5 credit toward grading fees. Obviously they will increase the fees to handle the outflow, but I dont think the grading community would mind that much.

sinin1

ICG does - I think $1 for pre1950 and 50cents for the modern stuff.

dbldie55

The grading services used to pay for their return. They do not any more, and for the most part, no one sends them back in anymore. Coincidence?

Placid

You can abuse them for the registry
Put your insert info into the registry crack the coin get it regraded and sell it.

Seriously I sent the ones from my crackouts in with my next submission.
No idea if pcgs just put them in the trash or actually updated the database though.

michael

whitewashqtr sums it up very well...............

also i might add it is a big boy ego thing .......................

it is impressive to some to show their double row box of unreturned tags at shows


sincerely michael

Whitewashqtr

Now that we identified the census reports as potentially misleading, how can we get better, more accurate population reports?

Zerbe

Several people told me that a few of the large crackout artists, who have access to millions of dollars worth of coins will save all the inserts and wait for a coin one grade lower, then break the slab on the lower graded coin and send it in with the higher graded insert.
If they had saved an insert from a MS 68 $10 Indian and a MS 67 Indian came in, they could break the 67's case and send it in to be reholdered with the MS68 insert they had hanging around. It might not work everytime, but in the above case they would realize at least a $30,000 gain.

Whitewashqtr

Now we are gettng into something else.

I dont think anyone could get away with that. Especially without the coin being examined. AND why the hell would you crack out a $30k + coin?

Lets assume you did this and they reholdered the MS67 with an MS68 insert. What do you do with the MS68 coin? Send it in for grading? I assume that is what one would do.

NOW.. this is an interesting point and I have spoken personally to PCGS, although David Hall would not talk to me on the subject and NO follow up has occurred on their part.

I recently won a coin on eBay (1941-D MS67 Washington, Pop 8/0) for a ridiculously low amount. After checking the seller's feedback it seems hsi slabs have been "tampered" with. He did this with a similar coin (1940-D MS67) where the buyer almost got burned for $2k. Needless to say, the seller admits the holder is tampered with and didnt sell me the coin.

Anyway.. this could be something that does happen. And I would like to know where the coin is that was in the original MS67 holder.

It's fraud and should be stopped any all costs to save our hobby and the thieves in it.

Zerbe

WHITEWASHQTR, I don't think you followed what I said. In the first place a large coin company that does many crackouts, would have an expert grader on the premises and cracking out a $30,000 coin is hardly nothing. I know of much more valuable coins, (up to $100,000) that they have cracked out in order to get a higher grade.
Now if they cracked out the MS68 $10 Indian and sent it in for an upgrade to MS69 and it came back as a MS69 or MS68, they still have the original insert in their office from when they firsty cracked out the coin. This is what this thread is all about; inserts that dealers do not send in. It is this insert that they can hopefully match up with a middle to high end MS67 coin. They only have to break the holder on the MS67 coin and send it along with the MS68 insert that they had in their safe and just hope it passes. Since a crackout artist is in actuallity an expert grader, the chances are pretty good the coin will work. It would probably be sent in with a couple hundred other high end coins, since crackout people usually handle very large amounts of coins. Of course some crackout artists are also coin doctors and giving the MS67 a little 'help', if needed, would probably guarantee the MS68. Sorry to say, this happens practically every day. Nobody has figured out a way to stop this illegal activity, and possibly never will. I think it is the grading companies that will have to take a position on the problem , because they know better than anyone else who the main perpetraters are.

Whitewashqtr

I thought I followed what you said and the last comments you posted make perfect sense.

I still dont get how you get the coin reholdered with the old insert and past the grading company. Wouldnt the slab have to be completely broken in order to take out the insert without damaging it? And if so, why isnt this particular coin and insert looked at more closely (i.e. grading the coin before its reholdered since it looks suspicious) by the grading company regardless of how many coins are submitted at once.

gmarguli

The grading services don't offer anything to people to return them, so why should they bother? You're asking someone to waste time and postage to do something that they don't get paid for.

While I will drop off inserts at shows if I remember them, it is an afterthought.

Steve27

Zerbe,

Nice theory you have there but it doesn't hold water. If you send a coin in to be reholdered and the coin is broken out of the slab, they won't reholder it. It has to be graded all over again.

Zerbe

Seve27, The coin does not have to be completely broken out. We are talking about a professional crackout artist who is an expert grader himself or who employs an expert grader. A slab can be compromised,( hit with a hammer for instance), near the top, which is one of several ways a slabs insert can be accessed. The MS67 insert is removed and the "extra' insert the crackout guy has been holding in his safe is then inserted. It does not take a rocket scientist to accomplish this. The trick is finding a similar year coin that grades about MS 67.5 or above. Maybe it is a 67 that they tried and did not make the 68 grade. So PCGS or NGC receive a partially broken slab with a MS68 insert, Even if it is regraded, it gets a little nudge with the MS68 insert. Crackout guy and Coin doctor are also sometimes synonymous, so if both the coin and insert were accessed, then the coin could receive a little 'help' before it is submitted. This is the real reason 'expensive inserts' are saved by a few of the large coin wholesalers. A few months ago, I knew for a fact, that such a dealer I know of had in his possesion, inserts for a coin he sold to me ( coin value=$90,000). I wondered why a dealer would hold an insert for a coin that should be a pop 2, but actually showed up as a pop 4 in the pop report. I thought it would be in his and all dealers interest to return the inserts, so the correct pop would show, especially on any coin valued over $10,000. Then I asked around and I found;NUMBER ONE--The particular dealer I am talking of holds on to these "EXPENSIVE INSERTS" so that when another coin of that year and grade show up at auction, for instance, then the higher false pop report, he has created, and only he knows this, will be sold at a lower bid, (to him of course). NUMBER TWO--is the scenario I have mentioned previously, with the insert being used to help get a MS67, for instance, into an MS68 holder. Steve27, if you think I made this all up and that nobody would or could do what I have presented here, then please PM me and I will give you more precise details. ZERBE

I just want to make it clear I have nothing against anybody who cracks out a coin to obtain a higher grade , because they think a particular coin is not graded correct. It is the few peope who take it several steps beyond, that I have a problem with. I think it is important that all collectors know the 'dirty details' that do exist in the hobby so they can be better prepared when a coin doctor/crackout artist enters their life.

buffalonickeljr

Maybe a collector or dealer holds onto an insert as proof or evidence to get a coin back into a certain holder. Lets say a collector or dealer has a very rare low pop coin that is in a pcgs 63 holder and has been unable to get it upgraded to 64 with pcgs but they are able to get it into an icg or ngc 64 holder as part of a strategy to ultimately get it int a pcgs 64 holder. The idea is that pcgs would want the prestige of having the rare coin graded by them rather than the other guys. Lets say upon resubmission to pcgs the coin grades 62. Don't you think the collector or dealer could show the old pcgs 63 insert to get it back into a pcgs 63 holder?

Dog97

It would be very difficult to change inserts without damaging the holder & insert. The inserts are glued to the slab.

Zerbe

Dog97, you are right, there is a just a small dot of glue holding the insert, but it is where this dot is placed that counts. I believe the dot of glue is adhered to the PCGS hologram, so that if the insert is removed, it should also remove a small portion of the hologram. So I am guessing that they would damage the holder in that section, so it looks like the hologram was also affected. I have never cracked out a single coin, I am only repeating what other collector/dealers have told me. For all the trouble, I would assume that this was only being done with very few, but expensive coins. Maybe somebody from PCGS or NGC could clarify this and offer their opinion as to whether switching an insert on a damaged holder is possible and if it has actually occured, to the best of their knowledge. I, for one, would feel better if I knew it was not possible. Also if switching an insert is possible, what, if any, would be the legal consequence???

Dog97

Actually the hologram is on the outside so the insert is not glued to it. Do to the design it might be possible with the rattler holders since the insert is stiff thicker paper folded double and is not glued.
I would like to think that PCGS would not reholder a coin that shows possible signs of tampering, ESPECIALLY if it is an expensive coin.
There was cases of tampering on rattlers, that's one of the reasons the slab design was changed. David Hall made a recent post about working with the law, something about slab tampering, and he said mess with his slabs and go to jail or words to that effect.

Whitewashqtr

Well, I think Mr. Hall is more bark than bite. As I mentioned in my earlier post on this thread that there is probably a potential tampered slab out there. I have yet to speak with anybody who cares.

In order for me to obtain the "tampered" slab, I would have to purchase it and risk losing my hard earned money to catch PCGS' theif. Not a good deal unless PCGS will guarantee me a refund, which they have not expressed an interest in doing.

So.. let the tamperers continue and we all suffer

tjkillian

I read where the earliest slabs were being counterfeited and PCGS STILL guaranteed the grade. It was a brilliant marketing move.

Tom

Zerbe

I, for one, would appreciate it if Mr. Hall would clarify the 'tampered slab',,,,',possible problem'. Especially the possible switching of inserts. If he misses this thread, I will ask it on the Q&A forum next week. ZERBE

Zerbe

I just received an auction coin which is missing 80% of the PCGS hologram. I could have sworn that sometime in the past, I read that the Hologram was a security feature. I had assumed the Hologram was on the inside of the slab and if anyone tampered with the slab, then the Hologram would show signs of the tampering. After seeing the partial Hologram, I scratched it with my fingernail and it is definitely on the outside of the slab, which means it NOT a security feature. So now I believe it is entirely possible to purposely damage a slab and change the insert. Hopefully, David Hall will explain that the slab insert is not that easily accessible to coin-doctors/ crackout artists. ZERBE

Dog97

The hologram has nothing to do with swapping an insert.
Every time I see a damaged hologram where a dealer has stuck his sticker I say Hmm....I wonder.........
Myself would only be concerned if it was missing.