confusion? what confusion?

CLASSICS

i have seen a lot of comments lately about pcgs vs ngc. all these grading changes, makes me wonder any more whats correct and what isnt.... tight today...loose tomorrow...they use to be tight now they are loose....they use to be loose now they are tight....old holders...new holders...pcgs was loose now they are tight...ngc was loose...now they are tight...anacs wont cross to ngc...ngc crosses to pcgs...pcgs wont cross to ngc...anacs wont cross to pcgs...anacs crosses to ngc...pcgs down grades ngc...anacs upgrades ngc...ngc downgrades anacs....someone moves to another grading company, now they are strict....does that mean they were not strict before....if he went to company {c} does that now mean they are stricter than company {a and b}....i send in a coin two weeks ago to be graded, when i receive it back, they are stricter now, so its now a diffrent grade? ...standards?...what standards? today we are ...this...next month...i know, let me guess, they will be something else?...i remember well the grading confussion back in the 1970s.............see, it seems some things never change,....when they do, let me know

EVillageProwler

Ron,

The confusion of which you speak only really manifests itself if you actively trade in the sight-unseen market. In such case, I have no good solution but one: I avoid the sight-unseen market like the plague.

I know that many folks here can't afford to travel to the bigger shows too often, and that they have to rely on Internet-based retailers. That is fine, as long as you deal with reputable retailers who offer a reasonable return policy.

When you buy coins solely sight-seen, you are at least guaranteed of buying coins that meet your requisite eye appeal. It may be that the coin's grade will shift up or down if you try to resubmit raw, but that will happen with any service (because all services are inconsistent to some degree!).

In time, you will become better at assessing the ``correct'' grade of a coin...

Regards,

EVP

MastaHanky

Maybe what we need is a timeline of when specific companies were strict, and not-so-strict. With a 1-10 rating scale or something...

PCGS

June 87 - Feb 89 (6)
Mar 89 - Sep 89 (5)
etc, etc

Eh, too much effort and possiblity for error. Forget I even mentioned it.

stman

Classics, I think you've had too much coffee.

FrattLaw

EVP -- While I do believe in the construct and reasons behind your position and agree with them in their totality, unfortunately, this wasn't the case in regard to my coins and downgrades. The 3 that crossed @ the same grade were purchased sight unseen. The two that were downgraded were purchased from reputable dealers (board members) which I have established a relationship with. What does this mean, either

1) I suck @ grading, which might be true but my estimates on the other 10 coins I submitted were close or perfect to the actual grades by NGC.

or

2) There's some discrimination on NGC's part as to PCGS coins.

or

3) Maybe PCGS isn't as good as all we think.

I'll keep trying, and see what happens in the future as to crossovers. It'll be interesting.

Michael

Dog97

I'm 1 of the 50 people that can actually grade and the only thing I'm confused about is this new standard RM says NGC is implementing which supercedes the ANA standard that most of us use in our deals.
Frankly I think it's a lot of BS and he's blowing hot air. When he was head of PCGS he did little to maintain, tighten or make consistant PCGS's use of the DMPL status other than if the DMPL was borderline they would give it PL but bump the numerical grade up 1 notch. I didn't complain but I wondered how I could crack a DMPL Morgan, lose the designation but increase the value of the coin by $300. DMPL cracked as PL. DMPL cracked out as regular MS. MS64 turned into 66. It was crazy.
Nothing's going to change at NGC, if they cut back on the prem strike designations dealers & submitters will go elsewhere. Sounds like some kind of ploy to increase the price of their Set Registry coins that way they won't have to let PCGS coins in & they can stand on their own.

dorkkarl

again, to expect 2 different people on 2 different days to grades 10 coins exactly the same is absurd. total reliance on such flim-flam is guaranteed to drive you crazy. accept that grading is an OPINION & you will begin to sleep much better at night.

K S

Steve27

Ron,

Now that Rick Montgomery is at NGC everyone is wondering if the standards at NGC will tighten and the standards at PCGS will loosen such that the two will meet. Only time will tell (just keep comparing the POPs from each organization).

BigD5

<< <i>I'm 1 of the 50 people that can actually grade and the only thing I'm confused about is this new standard RM says NGC is implementing which supercedes the ANA standard that most of us use in our deals. Nothing's going to change at NGC, if they cut back on the prem strike designations dealers & submitters will go elsewhere. Sounds like some kind of ploy to increase the price of their Set Registry coins that way they won't have to let PCGS coins in & they can stand on their own. >>



I've always liked NGC because they seemed to follow the ANA grading standard more closely than pcgs. You grow up learning a "standard", and like anything else, you get used to it. Pcgs comes along and makes their own standard and messes MY standard up. Is that good or bad, right or wrong? I don't know the answer to that question, but I sided with ngc, as my grading seemed more in line with their grading. I'll stick to where I'm comfortable. Pcgs made me pull my hair out a few years back. I have enough stress in my life, I didn't need more.
The second part of Dog's quote is EXACTLY what I think. I'm not sure if I'd term it as a "ploy", but rather a marketing strategy. Let's not be stupid here. Ngc pesonnel aren't sitting at the board room table happy or satisfied with their position in the modern coin market. They are going to try and make some inroads, and this seems to be the way they intend on doing it.

Dog97

BigD5
He answered our question on the NGC board and like I said he was just woofing. What he meant was that if it wasn't a DMPL it wasn't getting designated as one. I know the standards from the VAM book which was printed in 1970 something, from the ANA, and the PCGS grading book RM helped author in 1997. There is NO new standard we have to worry about. Clearly a market ploy some of us didn't fall for.

CLASSICS

<< <i>Classics, I think you've had too much coffee. >>

..............you know, i think your right, its my 3 dogs, yes, just like yours.........them, and the coffee is getting to me....oh well...i still love them all , thanks for all the comments

coinkat

There is confusion here... if you have a nice MS65 Coin in an NGC slab that you like, isn't that enough? Perhaps too much $$$ is being wasted on unnecessary crossovers. Leave the coin in whatever slab its in and use the $$$ to add to your collection.

EVillageProwler

While I do believe in the construct and reasons behind your position and agree with them in their totality

Jeez, Michael, I feel like I'm back in college listening to some lecture on mathematical logic!

As for your three reasons, it may be some combo of the three. And, keep in mind that our sample size is pretty small. However, based on my experiences, I feel that NGC is biased against PCGS. My crossover attempts (PCGS --> NGC) is abysmal, while my crackouts (from PCGS and elsewhere to NGC) and other raw submissions are excellent.

EVP

FrattLaw

Sorry the lawyerese gets the best of me sometime

Michael

Cam40

I just hate the crack-out game.
Why doesn`t everyone just leave the coin in whatever plastic its in and negotiate on the grade if theres any discrepency.
Like Dorkarl says.The grade on the insert is just an opinion given at one time.
Crack-outs..What a joke.

EVillageProwler

Why doesn`t everyone just leave the coin in whatever plastic its in and negotiate on the grade if theres any discrepency.

Because in the real world, there are lots of people who will use the slabbed grade as a starting point on price. Simply put, there are lots of people who'll buy the slab...

EVP

Cam40

Simply put, there are lots of people who'll buy the slab..

I also understand there is a lot sight-unseen buyers.So I know we can`t always rely on a scan totally for our grade
opinion.

michael

buy the coin not the holder

sincerely michael

CLASSICS

<< <i>buy the coin not the holder

sincerely michael >>

................michael, thank you, that was the point i was trying to make. it was not about me or any of the coins i own. i havent cracked out anything. if i like it, it stays where its at, pcgs or ngc. i just seems i keep hereing so much about this grade or that grade, this company or that company..yes the coin, not the holder

Zerbe

My rational response to cracking out coins or doing crossovers; I think a small explosive charge should be placed in all grading company slabs, to prevent their removal from said slabs. This would eliminate 90% of the complaints on this forum. Collectors, in the long run,would save time and money, and eliminate all the stress and agravation associated with switching their coins from plastic company A to plastic company B. On a serious side, five years ago I suggested to Katy from Pinnacle Rarities, that PCGS and NGC should both slab their coins in identicle holders. The only thing different on the holder would be the Slab Company's name or initials. This way all coins would fit in the slab boxes and people who complain about white holder versus clear holder (aesthetics) would be happy. Even better, would be removable Slab Company names, so you could change a coin yourself from PCGS to NGC or vice-versa. ZERBE