Rick Montgomery Maybe Right - Just got killed by NGC !

FrattLaw · January 20, 2003 3:17AM

Well, what he says might have some truth to it, or its a new push by NGC to tighten up their grading either way, out of 3 PCGS slabs submitted with a cross @ any grade request -- only 1 was matched by NGC the other 2 coins were downgraded by 1 pt. Albeit, 1 big point costing me several hundred dollars.

Surprisingly 2 ANACS coins submitted both crossed @ the same grade.

Hmmmm.... what does this mean in light of RM's comments.

Michael

Gilbert · January 20, 2003 3:20AM

Maybe you could expound on the condition of the coins you sent in? Kinda' hard to formulate an opinion without any info.

GP · January 20, 2003 3:23AM

What kind of coins? I sent a batch of PCGS and NGC Morgans to ANACS. The NGC crossed same grade, the PCGS dropped 1-2 grades each.

dan1ecu · January 20, 2003 3:23AM

Well, if the major grading services are competing for who can be the toughest grader, that could mean bad things for collectors who submit. It might also result in some undergraded coins entering the market (good deals?). I wonder if Mr. Montgomery is trying to turn NGC into the next PCGS in terms of its reputation for toughness.

Steve27 · January 20, 2003 3:26AM

There have been claims that PCGS downgrades NGC crossovers and now the opposite. Too bad it would be costly to see how far down you could get them to go by crossing them back to PCGS and then to NGC over and over.

danglen · January 20, 2003 3:32AM

I have never had much luck trying to cross slabs to another grading service. So if I think the coin has a shot at an upgrade or same grade crossover to a more marketable slab, I'll crack it in a New York minute. Since starting this approach, my results have been significantly better, although sometimes you have to resubmit the coin a couple of times to get the grade you really want

Android · January 20, 2003 3:37AM

My crossover record is pretty good actually. I've crossed 5 PCGS coins to NGC. Four crossed at the same grade(Washingtons), one graded higher (merc). They weren't "liners" so I was confident that they'd cross.

Andy

Outhaul · January 20, 2003 3:57AM

When this type of thing happened back when PCGS first started, it was "Crack-out City." Everyone was fed up with the tough stand PCGS was taking. Dealers and collectors were cracking them out double-quick and putting their own grades back on. Think we're seeing the seeds of those days being planted again? A collector/dealer revolt, perhaps?

Cheers,

Bob

Russ · January 20, 2003 4:06AM

HMM...NGC putting the screws to PCGS on crossovers. Can we say PBIAMF?

Russ, NCNE

RotatedRainbows · January 20, 2003 4:26AM

This does not seem to be anything new, I remember a post last summer across the street where Dragon submitted three high grade Morgans (all cracked from PCGS slabs not cross overs if I remember correctly) and all three were downgraded one by two points and others losing their prooflike designations. He sent them in as his free submissions at the same time I sent in three (mine were graded two days after Dragons) and KyleKnapp sent in three pieces that were cracked from PCGS holders. All my coins came back the grade expected MS65 as did Kyle's coins (MS66 & MS67's if I remember) so PCGS coins not measuring up NGC standards was happening long before Rick Montgomery arrived which is why I have never paid a premium for a coin just because it is in a PCGS slab unlike some who think PCGS coins should always be worth more then any other slab.

Placid · January 20, 2003 4:47AM

I smell a fish

I find it hard to belive someone would cross a pcgs coin to ngc.

FrattLaw · January 20, 2003 5:03AM

The five coins in question were all toned Peace $. In the past I have been extremely tight with my own grading. So its not a matter of me overgrading these coins, and for the most part, I don't care. I wanted all the coins in NGC holders b/c I personally think the white holder looks better with toned coins. I doubt highly if these coins will ever be resold even if I upgrade certain coins. That's why I crossed @ any grade.

The coins in question;

1926-S ANACS 63 -> (cracked out & submitted thought it may go MS64) NCG MS63 (got this one from BigD5/Darrin, really nice rim toning)
1923 ANACS 65 -> (thought it would go MS64) NGC MS65

1923-D PCGS MS64 --> (nice coin, nice strike unusual toning, thought MS65) NGC MS63
1928-S PCGS MS63 --> NGC MS63 okay with that one.
1935-S PCGS MS63 --> (great coin, again unusual toning, hair on fire, thought it may go 64) NGC62

And I didn't mention it before but I also submitted 2 raw 23-S, purchased from a local shop where the owner is a former PCGS grader. Both were bought as 63s with 1 being obviously nicer and a chance at 64 -- both came back MS62. I don't get that one 1 should be a 61 and the other a 62 or 62/63. But not both @ MS62.

I guess those drinking that PCGS Cool-Aid have to be careful.

I'm not upset, since I don't care about the $. And I don't care where my set is in regards to a Registry placement. I will just have to realize that I got some nice undergraded coins in my set

I guess that's better then having overgraded coins

Michael

Placid · January 20, 2003 5:07AM

Post what generation holders they were in. I have read that pcgs used to but not sure if they still do bump a grade for nice toning.

RegistryCoin · January 20, 2003 5:12AM

I don't get the marketing. If ngc tightens to the point of being perceived as similar to pcgs, wouldn't most everyone then send most everything to pcgs?

dragon · January 20, 2003 5:19AM

HA! This whole thing with NGC is all one big joke IMO. Some of the WORST overgrading that NGC ever did in the mid 90's was on Peace dollars, Morgans, and $20. Libs. IMO. I once looked over a big lot of over 350 NGC graded MS65 common date Peace dollars, and there wasn't a legit 65 in the whole group, many were in fact barely 64's ! And now they want to be tougher than PCGS to improve their place "in the community" and be "online" with PCGS prices and standards.

It's all a big joke at the expense of collectors AND dealers who play the game and must have their coins in the correct holders or are looking for upgrades or what have you. And the funny part is, people never seem to learn.

So now that NGC is "so tough",,,,,,what do they think happens with the plethora of overgraded crap they flooded the marketplace with for so many years, especially all the generic stuff that is virtually unsellable?? Wait, I know, it just all magically disappears, right?

dragon

nwcs · January 20, 2003 6:05AM

I never thought I'd say it this way, but the longer I dive into the hobby the more I agree with dorkkarl. Once you have a fair education in grading and detecting problems, the importance of a slab does begin to diminish. And the idea of spending money to slab instead of buy coins does begin to make me annoyed. (disclaimer, I have 4 submissions in right now -- probably my last 4) I'm beginning to think it best to spend the money on the coin instead and let the registry be darned if I can't insert my coin. If I need a registry, I can always program one that will allow anything and everything. And if I buy a coin already slabbed -- good, and I'll leave it that way. But if not slabbed, maybe spending $1 for a nice safe container is smarter than $15+ for a slab. However, this doesn't work as well when you want to sell...

Neil

tradedollarnut · January 20, 2003 6:11AM

Both major grading companies go thru phases of being tight and loose, and they also employ more than one grading team - each with their own interpretation of the company's standards. Statistically, I'd say that PCGS has stricter standards, but none of us collect statistics. We collect individual coins, so that is where the quality must be evaluated - on an individual coin basis! On an individual basis, both companies have coins ranging from undergraded to overgraded in their holders. Generic statements of quality are not relevent except to the marketplace as a whole.

EVillageProwler · January 20, 2003 6:12AM

However, this doesn't work as well when you want to sell...

Don't be too quick to decry this approach. When it comes time to sell, try to sell your beloved friends alongside a well-marketed named collection. Those auctions bring out plenty of experts who know how to assess the coin independent of the holder. All you need is 2 to 4 folks to properly assess the value of your coins, and you should realize a fair return from your old friends.

EVP

IrishMike · January 20, 2003 6:39AM

Amen TDN and EVP. Buy the coin if not you will end up with a lot of Registry Coins that are going to cost you an arm an a leg when you try to sell. How quickly we forget the $34,000 63-s Lincoln. Of course none of us here would buy the plastic.

clevegreg · January 20, 2003 7:34AM

Some good points made by all. I think both PCGS and NGC are in a state of flux right now. I recently bought some of those "Coin World" ANACS size plastic holders to try out, and they work great! Below is a picture of an ugly Morgan in one of them:

marcmoish · January 20, 2003 9:50AM

I agree with Dragon 100%. To the letter, NGC just doesn't have it. never did and never will. How pathethic those dealers that tell me PCGS conflict of interest stories and why I should be looking at NGC slabs. What hogwash they're all trying o talk themselves into this NGC is greater then PCGS trash. If I sound perturbed I am. Every coin I ever bought in an NGC slab I've gotten burnt on. ALL those fancy words to describe those stunning pieces of round lustrous metal...., too bad I wasn't smarter yet!!

Marc

RegistryCoin · January 20, 2003 10:03AM

<< Every coin I ever bought in an NGC slab I've gotten burnt on. >>

This is not uncommon.

Trime · January 20, 2003 10:35AM

I am going to re-emphasize a point made repeatedly in the past few weeks: "It is extremely difficult to judge trends in grading by all services or individual services without some hard data". Sooner or later we need some quality control to the process. It is tough enough to weigh a PCGS vs NGC vs others relative grading practice, but more difficult if there is a sliding standard. I have no idea if the changing standard stuff has basis but I do know I want my slabbed coin to be consistentally graded by what ever grading company I submit to. Judging standards across companies by prices offered may or may not have anything to do with grading standards or practice.

Bear · January 20, 2003 10:41AM

If you have ever seen a slide trumbone played, thats the feeling I get with not only the differing

quality of grading by each company on each coin series, but the apparent fine tuning by each

company on even those different key standards. Add to this mix the human element on people

having a bad day or fatigue or just indigestion, and one has a real mishigas.

Android · January 20, 2003 10:44AM

<< Every coin I ever bought in an NGC slab I've gotten burnt on. >>

This begs a question. Perhaps you can enlighten me Marc. Did you look at the coin inside the slab, but still bought it anyway?

Thanks,

Andy

Elcontador · January 20, 2003 10:46AM

It all goes back to what I've been saying for years. If you want a positive experience:

1) Learn how to grade a particular series (or specific denomination, year and mint mark) which interests you.

2) Look at as many of these coins as possible in person.

3) Buy the coin which 'fits.' A coin is like a custom made suit; it either 'fits' or it doesn't. If it doesn't avoid it, irrespective of how it's priced.

4) Get a second opinion of someone you trust re the coin before buying it.

Based on what I have seen, the more you submit, the more you will realize that this is an exercise in frustration.

marcmoish · January 20, 2003 11:12AM

Andy, what kind of a question is that? No, I covered it with foil and marked my initials on it with my nails. If I examined it before.. Umm well what do you think "until I got smarter" meant?
Or what did you thinks "ALL those fancy words to describe those stunning pieces...." meant???

Are you trying to PLUG NGC?? What gives? WHich part don't you understand. Their service is great. Personal super. Their grades suck! Any questions?

Yes Bear, real Mishigas

Marc

RegistryCoin · January 20, 2003 11:40AM

To call one's company part of the "sight unseen market" one's grading has to be a/the "standard".
For the most part, ngc hasn't done this.
Maybe a newer, tougher grading stance is (another) change to acheive this, but, imho, just simply can't be done, especially "to" those who remember all their past changes.

roadrunner · January 20, 2003 11:41AM

My own experience this past year shows NGC to be inconsistent on toned seated material. A classic example was a group of approx a dozen nicely toned orig coins out of the Vermeulle sale last November. I sent in the 2 most expensive coins in Nov 2002 and got the MS65 grades I expected. The rest went in during late Dec / January 2003 and all but 1 coin came back a grade LOWER than what they realized at the sale. They were simply grading by 1989 standards that day. 5 of the seated halves were returned 8 months later and as a group they went UP 5 points total....one coin 2 points by itself. So on that particular group NGC's consistency was 20% (only 1 coin getting the same grade again). Based on the plastic, the value of the coins doubled on paper. A month after this the dimes and half dimes went back and several of those upgraded a point. Nothing went down on the resubmissions. Maybe I was lucky to resolve all this on ONLY 2 submissions.

A similar occurence just happened on the 7 Queller halves I purchased were on the first submission every piece was very strictly graded....again by 1989 standards. On resubmitting 4 of the pieces 1 went up...3 stayed the same. The consistancy was better this time around. But I'm confident that 2 of the remaining 3 will grade higher and those were sent to PCGS to see if NGC is really going out of their way to penalize certain coins at times. My own experience is showing that NGC's chance of hitting the grade right the first time
may be no better than approximately 50-60% or so. This is a far cry from the 80-90% accuracy you would expect from a premier grading service and is basically what they achieved back in the '87-'90 era. I can only attribute this to either constantly shifting standards or the expertise of different groups of NGC graders. It's very possible that if I submitted the same coins to PCGS that similar inconsistencies would result. But in my situation I only have data with NGC. Let's face it......the grading issue has never been solved.....and may never be.

EVP and TDN have this right. Present the coins to multiple knowledgeable buyers at auction and you will likely get your price....less the 10-25% commissions that ensue! If not in the true holder it is very difficult to get an honest price outside of auction.

roadrunner

Android · January 20, 2003 11:44AM

Sorry if I offended you Marc. I was confused by your post. It indicated to me that a dealer tried, and was successful in selling you some overgraded NGC slabbed coins. I wondered how, being so obviously overgraded, you would buy such coins if you looked at them, graded them yourself, found them to be overgraded, and still bought them anyway. I assume that you got "smarter" after seeing different examples of PCGS slabbed coins that were correctly graded, coming to the conclusion that you had been "burnt" by the dealer who sold you the inferior NGC material.

No, I am not trying to "plug" NGC or "flame" PCGS. I will say, like everyone else has said so many times, there are properly and improperly graded coins in ALL holders, and it's up to you to be able to tell the difference.

Andy

marcmoish · January 20, 2003 12:09PM

Andy, yes now you got it right but the only correction is it was NOT just ONE dealer, unfortunately I was had by a few, I've been collecting for 20+ years now but really did not go heavy into slabs for that matter until about 2 years ago. I just did not realize the TRUE difference between a 63 and 64 or 64 and 65. Of course these famous dealers claimed these were all undergraded, and PQ stuff...blablabla.

I am extremely fussy now, and quick to point out my thoughts and comments much to the dissapointment of the offending dealer.

.... sorry I jumped at you

Marc

gmarguli · January 20, 2003 12:43PM

<< 

<< Every coin I ever bought in an NGC slab I've gotten burnt on. >>

This is not uncommon. >>

...for incredibly stupid or clueless people.

EVillageProwler · January 20, 2003 12:48PM

I am extremely fussy now, and quick to point out my thoughts and comments much to the dissapointment of the offending dealer.

Marc,

I am sorry that you've apparently been had by a few dealers. If it helps, I think we've all been had. I just chalk that up as tuition to Coin U.

I like it that you say that you're extremely fussy now. If I may, I'd like to add three comments that I hope you'll find constructive: first, don't be so fussy that you overly accentuate the coin's negative qualities (because no coin is perfect under enough magnification!); second, try to look at each coin, holdered or raw, as if they're all raw to begin with and then go by the slabbed grade or dealer's grade (or price) to see if it makes sense with your assessment; and third, never forget about eye appeal (if it's eye appealing to you now, chances are that it'll be appealing to someone else when you try to sell it).

Regards,

EVP

RegistryCoin · January 20, 2003 1:31PM

<< ...for incredibly stupid or clueless people. >>

Are you agreeing that coins graded by ngc cannot be trusted in a "sight unseen" market?

marcmoish · January 20, 2003 1:32PM

YUP, chaulked up as tuition is right

(..btw how DO you spell chaulk??) whatever really late here in NY

Its all water under the bridge....those pointers have been in place for me for a long time now, what I meant by fussy is simple I see the coin/slab if its not the grade I think it is IMHO, its just not the grade period.

I'm fine now, had to vent before !!!

Marc

Android · January 20, 2003 1:42PM

<< Are you agreeing that coins graded by ngc cannot be trusted in a "sight unseen" market? >>

In my opinion, absolutely no service, EVER can be trusted in a sight unseen market. In my experience, the most god awful coins I've ever purchased were in PCGS and NGC holders on the internet.

Andy

gmarguli · January 20, 2003 1:47PM

<< 

<< ...for incredibly stupid or clueless people. >>

Are you agreeing that coins graded by ngc cannot be trusted in a "sight unseen" market? >>

Not at all (however, I wouldn't make it a habit of buying sight-unseen regardless of slab). If every NGC coin you ever purchased burned you, then:

1) You either haven't been buying many NGC coins
2) You are getting screwed by the dealers selling you the coins
3) You are clueless and buying dogs.

The idea that 8+ million coins graded by NGC (which is 1+ million more than PCGS) are going to burn you and aren't graded as strict as PCGS is stupid. There are many series where they grade on par. And using the David Hall method of judging strictness of grading companies, there are many series where PCGS is much looser.

RegistryCoin · January 20, 2003 1:59PM

<< ...there are many series where PCGS is much looser. >>

Wouldn't it be suggested that ngc doesn't change standards in series llke these, and just change their standards in those series that are perceived as graded less strict?
The complications of not having/sticking to a genuine standard are overwhelming.

wallstreetman · January 20, 2003 3:27PM

Im with Placid, maybe try some Koolaid next time instead of Tequila shots, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?

michael · January 20, 2003 4:30PM

know and understand what you are looking at
judge the coin by yourself and its value for you and also figure that out by yourself

buy the coin not the holder

only buy coins with discretionary funds as a hobby as if you lost all the money you put into coins you could still live the lifestyle you are living now and notmiss the money

if you cant do all of the above

you should seriously consider not buying coins until you can do all of the above!!

nothing wrong with that just the way it is

sincerely michael

FrattLaw · January 20, 2003 5:13PM

As for crossing the coins to NGC, I wanted the set to reside in uniform holders. I prefer the white background over PCGS's clear plastic for toned coins. Nothing fishy about it.

Since I'm not going to sell the collection, I'm not worried about the loss of grades=money. Since I couldn't afford to assemble a MS64+ set, I was never concerned with being at the top of some registry page on some third party grading service's website, and therefore I'm not really concerned with the downgrades for that purpose.

The only real reason I posted this thread was in light of R. Montgomery's comments as to how NGC is tighter then PCGS as to certain designations. Also, it was/is my belief that NGC may be trying to tighten up their standards to compete more vigorously.

I just wanted to share my experience with other members who might think of playing the crack-out game with NGC with the intent of getting a point or two bump since the vast majority (IMHO) of board members think NGC is looser and now the market is getting hot with NGC slabs, they could make some money.

Since these are toned Peace $, I never purchased them with the slab in mind. All of the coins were purchased because of the originality of the toning/color. Someday, I may upgrade the set if a better, more colorful piece is available. And if I do, I'll still probably keep the older coin based on the rarity of these coins.

All in all, it doesn't change my perspective. A complete set of toned Peace $ will still be a thing of beauty and extreme difficulty to assemble in any MS grade. Whether a coin is a 62 or a 65 doesn't change that. Especially since most of the coins all exhibit a slightly different form of toning, whether it is monster rainbow, crescent, rim, monochromatic, streaked, speckled, golden, pastel or reverse/obverse 1 sided. It truly is a unique set for Peace dollars.

Thanks for everyones comments, I really do appreciate the help I get from the other members of this forum.

Michael

dorkkarl · January 20, 2003 6:55PM

this type of thread is absurd. different people have different opinions. why on earth would anyone be surprised that maybe, just possibly, getting 2 different grades from 2 different people could happen once in a while? do the coins REALLY have to be in plastic for you to be happy w/ them? you obviously like them, what do you care about what ngc/pcgs/anacs/the pope thinks about em? why can't you just be happy owning beautiful coins?

sorry, but this is much ado about nothing.

K S

Trime · January 20, 2003 8:47PM

A few points gleaned or thoughts offered after reading this and other threads on this topic:

It would be great if all collectors at all stages of their experience were expert graders and could judge perfectly the merits of each individual coin independent of its slab. If so, we would not need grading services and this thread would be non existent..

It is ideal, but near impossible to study for years and wait until being expert before buying your first coin. We learn from hands on experience and at least in my hands that is associated with mistakes.

For those that have not gained expert grader status in grading coins I suggest that you consider taking the advanced grading course at the summer ANA sessions in Colorado Springs. While, one course does not an expert make, it is a great investment and a unique opportunity to discus grading with the graders and hone your skills. Attending the viewing sessions at major auctions and reviwing racks of slabbed coins without initially looking at the label will be a great excercise. If you can find a more experienced person to help you, review your coins with them and learn from their assessments.

Most people overestimate the worth of their own possessions; feel that their submissions are often undergraded and believe that the inconsitency in grading is a one tailed phenomenon ( ie do not appreciate that there are coins that they submit are overgraded also).

Coin grading is far from an exact science ,is unregulated with inadaquate quality control process but it is has brought some standards (albeit imperfect) to the field. Consistency should be the goal of all grading services. If competition to be the toughest were not important to the grading services reputation and bottom line, there would probaby more consistency. There is this tug of war between the desire of submitters to have their coins get the highest grade possible and the desire to have the grading service to be held in the highest esteem to realize the greatest premium in the marketplace. If grades did not impact so greatly on pricing (incremental value) the variance in grading would make less difference to us. If competition and market share were not such a bottom line factor for grading businesses there might be less shift in standard or at least practice.

Chalk is spelled chalk. A spell check attached to this web site would reduce frustration and enhace readability.

I see little point in calling fellow board members stupid because they know less than you do. Respect your peers, admire your teachers and help those that have more to learn. I have not met a person that did not know more about something than I do. Arrogance is not a very appealing quality.

Regarding discetionary money: There are few individuals who are deep into coin collecting that have not put a significant amount of money into their collection. While you should not have made a third mortgage on your house to purchase coins most of us would feel the pain if our collections were worthless or stolen., "Discretionary ( freedom to chose)" money is relative and the hobby is addicting. lol

For all its problems, this forum is one of the greatest education tools in this hobby and business. Thanks to all of you!

marcmoish · January 20, 2003 10:31PM

Michael, it seems you've changed your tune sort of...when you first posted you mentioned you've lost money on a downgrade (1 point costing several hundreds of dollars ....)....now you say money doesn't matter and third party registry...whatever it is...your probably thiunking oh my gosh what a can of worms have I opened up here???

, it seems you are cherry picking your pieces just fine so you've probably put together a fine set that is mostly PQ examples for the grade even if its NGC, and will likely have no qualms with it down the road whatever you do with it.......... On the issue of white slabs I believe its a personal preferance (did someone recommend spell check

to most, I really dislike the white as it does not show of the coin and rims as well as clear slabs, my favorite series are the Merc's and they look lost in NGC.

I agree trhis board is incredible in its diversity and tongue in cheek tips.........

KS/Dork ....LOL, I got my key pieces certified by the Pope, so I'm with you

Greg/gmarguli sorry but your posts labeling others stupid are indeed clueless and tastless, I won't even bother to respond!

"For all its problems, this forum is one of the greatest education tools in this hobby and business. Thanks to all of you! " Thanks Trime for your 3 cents

Morning Board,

Marc

Zerbe · January 20, 2003 10:58PM

Fratlaw, It sounds like you are building a visually impressive set of Peace Dollars; no easy task. As for crossing slabs, my personal opinion is simple. Don't do it; EVER. I have previously mentioned my personal experience on this board of crossing slabs. I think you have a better chance of winning a jackpot at Foxwoods than crossing slabs. I mentioned before how a dealer cracked out a PR65 gold $5, of mine, from the old, old, green holder and it came back a PR64, (PCGS ). He cracked it out again and sent it to NGC, and it came back a PR67. To me, this is too much of an inconsistency in grading and the huge difference in value, on this particular coin, made me abandon entirely any idea of ever crosssing a slab again, even though I came out ahead on this coin. The whole coin crossing thing just turns me off now. I have decided not to even consider another coin I need, if it is not in the right holder, for my particular needs. There are many Proof Morgans and Proof Barber halfs on dealer sites right now, in NGC holders, that still tempt me, but I refuse to buy them and take a chance on crossing them. A bad day for a grader at PCGS, means an even worse day for me, and the same can be said for NGC. I have learned to be more patient and wait for the right coin to come along in the RIGHT HOLDER.
Zerbe

FrattLaw · January 21, 2003 12:10AM

As for being happy with the coins and why do they need to be in plastic -- again, I am happy with the coins and I even considered breaking the entire set out and putting them into an album, but then I thought that also has disadvantages. I don't need them to be in plastic but I prefer the NGC holder. Eventually I want them to reside in a nice cherrywood display box with a felt insert in order to display them. The holder is only asthetic and protective.

As for my grading abilities, no I'm not an expert, nor will I ever be. I am looking into the Summer ANA Seminar. I think everyone who is going to spend any significant amount on coins take a course on grading, it's imperative. Would I say I'm a decent grader of Peace $, sure, I've looked at and examined hundreds-thousands, at this point, raw, certified, in person, via the internet. And you know what, they are hard to grade, weak strikes, bagginess, flatness and all. They are just a hard series to grade.

As for the PQness of my set, well that's really hard. As for cherry picking my coins, again very hard, that assumes there are several coins from which to pick. Toned Peace $ just don't occur in multiples, I often have to grab one when it's available just because it is colorful or original. As the years pass and I find more examples I probably will find better quality or PQ for the set.

I've been told by several "toning experts" I will not be able to assemble a complete set. The coins just aren't there in MS grades. We'll see, so far I have 13/14 of the 24.

And finally, the crossing issue and money, yes I technically lost value in the set, but not money since I won't be selling the coins. Price only matters on the day you buy something and then the day you sell it. Otherwise, who cares. I misspoke, but it really doesn't matter. And as for crossing, I crossed these coins @ ANY grade. I knew there was a chance of them going down and thats fine. Is someone says gee he only has a MS62 23-S, that's their problem, but if they saw the coin with it's double crescent toning on the obverse and reverse, I doubt they would even notice the grade, same as I.

Overall, I am pleased with my set and actually I can't wait to get pics posted to the web so others can see it. Again, thanks for all the comments, good and bad. I don't mind being called stupid, it wasn't the first time and it probably won't be the last.

Michael

coinguy1 · January 21, 2003 12:23AM

I admit to not having read this entire thread yet. I will, though.

But, I can say that the advice Trime gave and the points he made are excellent, whether in the context of this, or any other thread. I urge everyone to re-read his post and give it some serious thought. Then, read it again!

nwcs · January 21, 2003 12:43AM

BTW, you have to take the beginning grading class before taking advanced with ANA. So go to the Money show in Charlotte and take the beginning grading class there. That way you can meet me.

Neil

FrattLaw · January 21, 2003 12:56AM

Neil

They do offer the beginning class @ the seminar as well as the advanced class. Get'em both done in a week! Not that I wouldn't want to meet you, but Colorado is closer to me then North Carolina.

Michael

nwcs · January 21, 2003 1:05AM

Well, there's always next year.

May end up going there and take the advanced class and another class. Use up all my vacation at once...

You never know, Michael. You may end up with a client in Charlotte around that time.

It won't be me, since I'm in TN. I think.

JLW · January 21, 2003 1:47AM

FrattLaw,
Good for you, bottom line is they're your coins and you should do whatever makes you happy. I'm putting together a set of 2001 gold Eagles in NGC holders for the same reasons you stated, I think the gold looks better in the white as opposed to clear. They will all be the same MS grade so I will have a nice, uniform set. Most of my slabbed coins are PCGS but there are many, many nice coins in other holders and still a lot of nice raw coins to be found, these are the real treasures IMO as all third party services have experienced waves of inconsistency. (Except those that have always been terrible).
Good luck with your set, it's going to be real nice.
Joe

Rick Montgomery Maybe Right - Just got killed by NGC !

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