Rick Montgomery Says PCGS is LOOSER
gmarguli
Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
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gmarguli
Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
gmarguli
Posts: 2,225 ✭✭
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peacockcoins
Russ, NCNE
Phhhhht!
B.
A Tax is a fine for doing good.
Ken
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
What did that shirt say?......**it Happens? yeah, that's it.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
should NGC graded coins not be so recognized within the body of the Registry?
What the heck is he talking about? Doesn't NGC allow their own coins in their registry. Oh, wait, he means PCGS? When a company has to talk about another companies product, it usually means theirs sucks. Worry about making your own product the best, not about what PCGS is doing. I am starting to lose some respect for Mr. Montgomery here....
JJacks
I gave up on my NGC Sac set simply because the quality was not there for the grade assigned. They allow more marks on a MS68 coin than does PCGS.
I don't consider Franklins to be moderns anymore. R & I has a beautiful NGC MS67FBL Franklin on their website. I have to wonder why they would not cross it to a PCGS slab and make 1000 dollars more. mdwoods
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Only ANCAS and SEGS make this distinction. NGC & PCGS would better serve the collector with a 5 & 6 step designation. NGC tougher full step standard may not be better for the full step collector.
Frank
My Jefferson Full Step Variety Set (1938 - Current)
My Jefferson Proof Variety Set (1938 - Current)
Andy
First POTD 9/19/05!!
Why, then, are folks here still raising issues regarding PCGS MS65 vs NGC MS66? That's actually a different issue?
And, why the PR accusation? How would you feel if no one at NGC bothered to clarify such issues? On such designations, NGC has different criteria than their competition. No biggie... It happens all the time where grading interpretations are different amongst the various services!
Finally, let's keep in mind that RM is tasked to work on the registry. He's not really involved in grading anymore. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
For JJ and some of the others, I used to sing this song as a kid. Koolaid, Koolaid tastes great. Koolaid Koolaid can't wait.
Spoken with tongue in cheek and hope that we will all learn to laugh a little at ourselves.
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
Ken
Isn't this just another case of the grass is greener on the other side of the fence?
Secondly, he goes on to say that only the deepest coins and the ones with the most contrast and ones that truly look like proofs will be given the DPL designation at NGC.........HA! He should know by now that a coin need not have ANY appreciable contrast to warrant the DMPL designation depending on the date, and that even a heavily contrasted coin may not warrant even a PL designation, again, depending on the date in question.
Basically, the entire premise by RM regarding NGC and DMPL designations was a joke IMO, as they themselves have been absurdly lenient on handing them out in the past, and MUCH moreso than PCGS.
dragon
If Rick is correct, then should most every auction garner more for the same grade and designation coin NGC to PCGS???
All one needs to do is look at Teletrade to see how the market accounts for each services standards.
Rick is a good guy, and still is. I think he is just pushing the company he works for. I think we'd all do that.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
NGC Grader
...........and i think it's interseting to note that as this thread heads south it's apparent that NGC brews up it's own koolaid!!!!!!
having a standard and grading to that standard are two entirely different animals. we constantly see PCGS assailed here for just such accusations. what's wrong with fair play?? never a dull moment.
al h.
Mike, in most professions years of experience does not necessarily guarantee improved performance. For example, a house painter with 40 years of experience may peak out in terms of ability at, lets say, 10 years. The next 30 years is simply repeating his abilities that he reached at the 10 year level. A plateau, if you will. Now comes a new painter kid, 20 years old, who really loves painting houses and has natural artistic ability, combined with a scientific mind....the best of both worlds. He also has a strong work ethic. Within 2 years, he has surpassed the veteran painter. 2 years later, he is way beyond the veteran painter. Blah, blah...you get the point. Just because professional graders grade more coins than us, does not necessarily make them better graders.
I just don't think it is fair for David Hall to make a comment about there only being "50 people who know how to grade". Hog wash!! We have all agreed that grading is subjective and an opinion. By that very definition, we ALL know how to grade, since we ALL have opinions.
the appearance of everything in bold is a server malfunction or something since my entire post page somehow turned out that way. the only thing that should have been in bold was---Rick Montgomery NGC grader----which i pasted from the NGC link provided by gmarguli. it's his ID from the site, so i just assume since he says he's a grader that he is.
the rest is only my sarcastic opinion, take it or leave it. i guess i couldn't resist the urge to blurt out something about how redundantly ridiculous these threads are about this service-that service-your service-my service. we all know where they end up-----probably at 83 replies talking about something that's of no relation to the original thread starter.
..........and so i doze and so it goes...........
al h.
from people in all industries , who move over to work for the competition.
Camelot
that only 50 coin people can do this grade coins the majority of coins overall 1792 to 2002 proof and ms and all circ grades
i would probably agree with him!! yes yes yes
now for me withim my super small apeciality of coins i think i am just as good as or maybe better than anyone out there
1860,to 1915 silver and nickel proof cameo/deep cameo coins!
1860 to 1915 gem ms silver and nickel coins and 1860 to 1864 cents ms gem
red brown proof indian cents
1936 to 1942 proof coins
only A FEW dates dmpl morgans and pl morgans vety few dates
gem ms lib nicks
gem ms halfdimes 1860 to 73
but only within my small speciality of coins ...........
for the other 99.9% of coins usa coins to be graded i am not the best and might be terrible!
sincerely michael
Your quote:
<< <i>for the other 99.9% of coins usa coins to be graded i am not the best and might be terrible! >>
Now, now you are too hard on yourself. It is only "98.9% of coins usa coins, etc."
First, any Jefferson Nickel assigned as Full Steps (FS) is required to possess 6 full steps. Other services only require 5 steps for the designation, while others actually specify the number of steps visible.
This and the rest of what he had to say is just about the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard.
It's market ploy hype, another way of making promises to promote trafic by suggesting that NGC is now going to cherry-pick your coins and PCGS with even tougher standards. The main problem lies with a percent of misguided public who will buy into this false pretense of collecting. Driven by the notion that now there's a venue to really separate the very best coins from the rest.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
hope you are well and keeping warm!
it has snowed everyday here since jan 1 and also it has been zero tonight and will be in the minus numbers all next week!
i am looking forawrd to spring and a deep/ultra cameo half dime.......lol
sincerely michael
How can you trust a grading service that sells MS65 Morgan Silver, MS70 Silver Eagles and MS70 Gold Eagles like there is nothing to them? PCGS has done some questionable grading on certain high profile coins, but NGC far outweighs PCGS on the *questionable* grading... If the general public believed the NGC hype, then NGC coins would sell for equal value of PCGS coins graded the same.
Pure and simple, he is no longer with PCGS. He either left on good terms or on bad terms. We as the general public will never know the truth, NO MATTER what you have read, or heard. Therefor he will support whatever company he works for, because they sign his paychecks. take it with a grain of salt.
I do have difficulty with the "I'm ( they're) tougher than you (them)" debate in the absence of data.
WHEN will there be carefully designed study in which an adequate number of coins in sufficient representative series be submitted in a blinded ( the services are not aware that the coins submitted are part of a study) randomized fasion to a number of grading companies and the results analyzed and published. In the absence of these data this debate will go on and on and on.
In my field ( I'm not a coin dealer), no one makes decisions based on hearsay or bravado. Show me the data! This rigorous process is not only good science but would if repeated on a regular basis create quality control.
Do I expect this to happen? Maybe! It will not be driven by the grading companies (too much risk); nor by the ANA (too much risk, too little organization and committment to what should be their responsibility); it could be sponsored by a Foundation grant if a foundation were interested in the topic ( this would be a great thesis topic for an advanced degree) or by a grass roots effort by a coin forum. In the absence of facts, this discusion will continue with advocates for X, Y and Z companies expressing their heartfelt or marketing opinions.
"Third, Morgan Dollars achieving the Deep Proof-Like (DPL) designation will only be those coins that possess the deepest mirrors against the frosty device. A coin that truly looks like a proof. There is not a depth gauge for DPL like there is at other services for the very reason that NGC requires the coin to not just be reflective at a certain depth, but the coin must have the clarity of a true proof coin against the whiteness associated with so many proofs."
I have been collecting prooflike Morgans for over 25 years. I have never heard, among serious collectors in this field, such restrictive criteria required for a coin to achieve a deep mirror designation. What Mr. Montgomery seems to be outlining is, perhaps, what one might attribute as a "deep mirror cameo" Morgan silver dollar. There are, indeed, many Morgan dollars whose fields are enormously reflective with great depth and clarity and which Morgan prooflike specilaists would unhesitatingly call deep mirror prooflikes regardless of the degree of contrast between the fields and the devices.
I might also add that my observations of many coins in NGC as well as PCGS holders at coin shows does not suggest that this restrictive definition of deep mirror prooflike, as outlined by Mr. Montgomery, was actually ever put into consistent use by these grading services at any time in the past.
It boils down to supply and demand, perception, and puffery. If you feel PCGS is better they are to you. If you feel NGC is better they are to you.
How many times have we seen the comment, "buy the coin, not the holder?" And, how many people here have made comments like, only buy PCGS, NGC, and ANACS?
There should be no problems here with what Rick has to say.
All you have to do is go out and look at the coin in the holder and buy the coin.
They have different standards, so what! In the long run consumers will drive the market, not the grading companies.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Just look at that software company that has the richest person in the world as an owner. Better product has never been one of their strong points, but marketing has.
<< <i>Those guys and gals that look at thousands of coins a month day in and day out are much better at it than I would ever be and I will go out on a tiny limb and say most if not the rest of us. >>
Well said Mike.
I wonder how many of the coins receiving "moon money" lately would have brought as much if they were raw? Especially those with, what some consider, questionable toning. It's very easy to second guess someone's grade interpretation, once it's inside the plastic.
Thank you guys (and any others of the same mindset) for your comments regarding the DMPL Morgan dollars; I'm amazed that this is now Mr. Montgomery's perspective. Same with the UCAM v DCAM comment - both are a bit hard to swallow
Yes, I agree that NGC is tougher on the Franklin FBL designation; I wish PCGS would adopt the same standard, but Mr. Hall has inferred that it probably won't happen.
I'm curious why Rick didn't push for those "higher standards" here at PCGS, though AND I wonder if a search through the archives would provide any "contradictions" to his current NGC position?
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
<< <i>One of the better comments I heard at FUN was made by David Hall at their table, speaking to a dealer. He stated that probably only 50 people really know how to grade coins. >>
Most of them post here I think
<< <i> Roll the dice, or in this case, pay another submission fee and see if your luck changes
I roll the dice ONCE, and pay ONCE, for what`s advertised by BOTH of the upper tier slabbing companies as CONSISTENT grading.I feel as of late that I`m being taken advantage of,...RE$UBMI$$ION$!!!
I`ve said it before,I say it again, if I wanted to throw my money away by gambling, I`ll go to Vegas.
Supposedly their is more than one pair of eyes that look at every coin submitted.
JMHO, Dave