Wanted: Dissatisfied ACG (Accugrade) dealers or collectors

iras4 · January 18, 2003 10:21PM

ALERT:

If you had been an ACG (Accugrade) dealer and/or a collector of coins
purchased in ACG holders and your experiences have been not to your
satisfaction, I would like to hear from you. I would like some documentation
regarding these experiences.

You may be asked to furnish an affidavit or declaration concerning these
issues.This is quite important and I'd like to hear from you in the next few
weeks if you have anything you feel you would like to say.

My e-mail address is:

iras4@aol.com

Ira Stein

jbsteven · January 18, 2003 10:24PM

Could you elaborate on what you want and what you are going to use the information for?

Rampage · January 18, 2003 11:01PM

goose3 · January 18, 2003 11:48PM

Hello Ira!

Would something like my ONE ACG experience count? I purchased a few years ago(when I was getting back into collecting so don't give me too much grief) an ACG VG8 or 10 1918/7D buffalo. When it arrived, no problems were noted on the hoder and the obverse CLEARLY had been coated with something and was grainy almost as if the entire obverse had been acid treated. It also had a glossy look to the obv. as if it were coated with something. I immediately returned for a refund but while I had it I looked and looked and could not see ANY sign of an overdate.

littlewicher · January 19, 2003 12:08AM

I've only had one ACG coin. It's a 1959-D Franklin Half, ACG MS65 FBL. I grade it MS64, with the bell lines not enough to be designated FBL. Other then being overgraded, the coin was alright. On these boards one time, someone talked about buying a 1916-D Mercury Dime, in an ACG holder, I can't remember the grade, but when they got the coin in the mail, the D was just in the slab. It fell off the coin. That's what I heard anyways.

ms71 · January 19, 2003 12:13AM

I don't even look at ACG slabs, the plastic is always covered with little round marks from guys touching them with ten-foot poles.

SarasotaFrank · January 19, 2003 12:51AM

this thread has a curious aroma to it.

Methinks if "Ira" is going to be mysteriously secretive about his motivation,,,

well it doesn't take a genuis to figure it out.

stujoe · January 19, 2003 1:16AM

"Ira" is Iras4 on Ebay. I am sure several members of this board have dealt with him. IMHO, he is a very respected dealer.

smprfi · January 19, 2003 1:23AM

Sniff sniff Do I smell a lawsuit?

Pushkin · January 19, 2003 1:28AM

jdimmick · January 19, 2003 1:42AM

Ira,

I am like most people, I never even bother to look at an ACG, NTC, or other fly by night services holder, but the other day at are local club meeting, someone had a 1922 plain Lincoln graded ACG-8. The coin clearly had been harshly cleaned, maybe with a bottle of brasso, and was graded tooooo high.

jim

dpoole · January 19, 2003 1:47AM

What pushkin said, even the one (1) ACG purchase part.

Email to Ira sent.

Tundertron · January 19, 2003 1:49AM

I don't usually look at ACG graded coins, but I have personally inspected an 1849 seated dollar which was obviously environmentally damaged that was in an "MS 63" ACG holder with no mention of it on the slab.

dwood · January 19, 2003 1:49AM

I accidently bought 3 NTC Lincolns (MS 68 or so). I was "manually sniping" (how's that for creative technical lingo???) one night and thought I saw a lot of 3 NGC Lincolns at a ridiculously low price. They were ridiculously low, and now we all know why

NTC=Not Truthfully Certified

MastaHanky · January 19, 2003 3:12AM

Just reaffirming that Ira is one of the good guys. You have nothing to fear by sending any information to him.

(And ttt)

DesertLizard · January 19, 2003 3:16AM

Granted, Ira has not posted but a handful of times on these boards but why does he meet up with such initial suspecion? He has a great ebay track record and has never been a supporter of 3rd rate slabs like ACG, PCI, NTC, etc.

Maybe he is unaware how things are done on these boards?

relayer · January 19, 2003 4:08AM

I'm 100% satisfied with my ACG purchases.

It's a 1918 Illinois Commem AU-50 that I bought 15 years ago.

NumisEd · January 19, 2003 4:15AM

Sounds like Ira is heading up a class action law???

Steve · January 19, 2003 4:35AM

I agree with those who state that Ira is a good guy. He is mostly on the RCC boards, but does a major business in Lincoln Cents, especially the 1922 no D strong reverse. He hates Accugrade. Steve

Barry · January 19, 2003 5:57AM

<< Sounds like Ira is heading up a class action law??? >>

I know Ira reasonably well and that's not his style. My guess is it's a defensive move. A year or two ago, I know he got a letter from Hagar's lawyer about his tag line on Ebay not accepting ACG coins or doing business with ACG dealers.

You'd only be doing the hobby a favor by helping him out, if possible. As others have already said, he's one of the good guys.

Catch22 · January 19, 2003 6:11AM

Best of luck to you, Ira. If I could offer anything other than my opinion, I would.

dwood · January 19, 2003 6:29AM

About all Hagar's lawyer could have asked was "Could you please remove the line? PRETTY Please?" as they'd have absolutely NO leg to stand on in trying to legally force him to remove the statement. It is as inocuous (from a legal standpoint) as my saying that I will not buy NTC slabs. Ira doesn't give a reason why he won't trade ACG, or deal with dealers who do a large business with ACG, he simply states he will not, and does not. For a company with "the image" and "stature" of ACG to be so concerned with the policies of a solitary, very reputable dealer, speaks volumes about the truth that is hiding beneath. "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

I suspect we all know why, but I wonder why any reputable dealer would have a policy such as Ira's. Perhaps there is a problem with the plastics in ACG holders? Perhaps the color of the labels clashes with the natural luster of copper, silver, or gold? Perhaps they are slow to process orders, or they only ship to the US Virgin Islands? Perhaps a dealer might just want to avoid the "nothing to argue about" scenario that inevitably arises when you are dealing with only perfect, mint state, pristine gems! (where is the fun in that?!?)

I have no idea why someone would chose not to deal with a company who has proudly placed its name on so many highly graded coins in a sea of otherwise "lesser specimens."

We still have freedom of speech, and it is still a free country. That's why there are fine, reputable grading companies such as PCGS, and "the wannabes" who are in it only for themselves, turning out slab after slab of "MS70" and "MS69" labels attached to MS63 coins. I don't know one way or another (honestly, I dont), but if Ira believes ACG is 3rd rate service which may actually do more harm for the hobby than good, that is his prerogative. And it would then become my prerogative to agree with him. Fully. Completely. Most whole-heartedly.

But I digress, for this is all speculation.

I don't know Ira, and I don't speak for Ira, but if my hunch is right (there's a first time for everything!), Ira may well speak for me regarding some of the less reputable grading services. I don't buy or sell ACG slabs, and I don't want to deal with dealers who do. There are other grading services I will not honor either.

Sue me. We can settle quickly if the judge will allow me to make payment with my MS70? 1922 Plain...if I can only find a service who will grade it CORRECTLY!

ccrdragon · January 19, 2003 7:06AM

Have done business with Ira several times on ebay and he is definitely one of 'the good guys'! I'd support him in this endeavor regardless of his reason for it - I've also sent him an email detailing my one ACG buying experience.

Cecil

Barry · January 19, 2003 7:41AM

Dwood,
It doesn't matter if Ira is right or not. If he is sued, it will cost him thousands to defend himself. Even if it goes to court and he wins, he doesn't get reimbursed for his legal fees. That's unfortunately, the way our legal system works.

LincolnCentMan · January 19, 2003 8:02AM

...email sent...

David

Pushkin · January 19, 2003 8:59AM

NumisEd · January 19, 2003 9:05AM

We have all been helping in one way: AVOIDING ACG SLABS at all cost. Eventually they will go away. ACG has already employed their backup plan of renting their rickity, old, crappy, junk yard slabbing machine to other skeezer-type dealers in order to raise money. I must admit; that was a brilliant business move. It's diabolic, if you think about it. Eventually those ventures will fail and it will be all over for ACG. I suppose Hagar will be back in some form or another. Maybe he will be a rent-a-cop guard at weekend club shows. Imagine in 40 years from now. KollectorKid and AirplaneNut will say, "hey, kid, that guy once ran the evil ACG empire......look at him now, he just pissed his pants".

clw54 · January 19, 2003 9:07AM

There does seem to be a lot less ACG slabs on eBay these days.

Mark · January 19, 2003 9:17AM

Pushkin, et. al.

At the FUN show last week, when I was hanging out by Mr. Hagar's table waiting while my family purchased some gold nuggets from the table next to his, I overheard Mr. Hagar say to a customer that he (Mr. Hagar) was soon going to fill a lawsuit naming Mr. Barry Stuppler as the defendent. However, I overheard no more details. So, take what I heard for whatever you believe it is worth.

Mark

NumisEd · January 19, 2003 9:20AM

Mark, I heard something similar as I was pacing back-and-forth between freak show exhibits. I heard Hagar talking to a few different innocent bystanders that his company was as good or better than any certification company. I also heard his spew a few attempted words regarding the PNG survey. I wi.....wi....will finish.....po..po....pooooosting....right after I hurllllllllllllllllll................too late.

Petescorner · January 19, 2003 9:25AM

We have all been helping in one way: AVOIDING ACG SLABS at all cost. Eventually they will go away.

I think they will be around as long as there are new people entering the hobby and as long as there are those who want the higest number on their plastic regardless of whether or not it's accurate.

I was collecting coins for almost a year, and even had one ACG slab, before I heard the first negative comment about them. Of course, I wasn't reading this forum for the first year either!

Barry · January 19, 2003 9:39AM

<< I overheard Mr. Hagar say to a customer that he (Mr. Hagar) was soon going to fill a lawsuit naming Mr. Barry Stuppler as the defendent. >>

That sorta makes sense. Barry Stuppler was the one that put the PNG survey together. Maybe PNG also named? Time will tell...

K6AZ · January 19, 2003 10:10AM

Apparently, it is going to be against several people. I don't know if I am included yet, but I made it known to his wife that my site will only come down with a court injunction. Next week should be interesting.

twodollardon · January 19, 2003 10:15AM

Email sent. I will do anything to eliminate ACG. I have earned and paid for the right ! ! !

michael · January 19, 2003 2:58PM

i live in rochester ny and ira lives in rochester ny i have known ira persoanlly for 18 years i once worked for him

i just saw ira at the last local coin club meeting last tues

i do not know what is going on but

i can say i trust ira and if he is asking for some information then it is legit and for a good betterment of the hobby
i would not be afraid to answer him or contact him with your, concerns
and i am sure if you can help him in his request it would be worth it for the betterment of everyone! as really all he is asking for is the truth/proof with regard to your experiences with waht he is asking for

nothing wrong with that!! and nothing illegal at all!!

sincerely michael

kobrakoins · January 19, 2003 10:27PM

I don`t buy from ACG,ISN,PCI,NTC,SEGS and anything other thanPCGS,NGC,or ANACS

michael · January 20, 2003 3:26PM

ttt

relayer · January 20, 2003 4:48PM

Something tells me this guy will soon be a dissatisfied ACG collector

crito · January 20, 2003 5:19PM

I don't know why anyone would submit coins to ACG. You go to their website and first thing you see is a $100-$500 reward for negative comments... and then they brag about "no major complaints"... gee, I wonder why. Their new slogan should be "you'll like our grading, or we'll sue you". Doesn't really make me want to send in a bunch of coins, that's for sure

On a 10 coin submission, they're no cheaper than ANACS anyways. And I can say "ANACS economy service is so slow they'll find a cure for AIDS before my coins get graded" without getting sued

whadda deal

Trime · January 20, 2003 9:07PM

Now I know who is Ira Stein.
If there is a suit (see later Pushkin thread), it is hard to believe that it based on the statement that he "does not....ACG" on his web site. Maybe for ACG this is good publicity.

Cockney · February 5, 2003 5:43AM

Pardon a naive question, but if Accugrade is offerring $100 -$500 per negative e-mail why don't you all turn yourselves in. They will be bankrupt rather quickly

NumisEd · February 5, 2003 8:42AM

The "catch" is that ACG will pay you the $100 to $500 reward in Accugrade submissions. Can you believe that? That's like a manure salesman paying you with $hit for any information about people talking badly about his product.

greghansen · February 5, 2003 9:10AM

Didn't we travel down this road a couple of weeks ago? Here we go again? With the Ira is a great guy spin (I'm sure he is...don't know him myself)... He's just doing the right thing for the hobby (I hope so and believe he probably is). But if all that is true, they are doing their cause NO GOOD by soliciting affidavits from people, without telling people how and why their affidavits are being requested. ANYONE who provides an affidavit/statement should expect that the statement will surely be subject to discovery by the plaintiffs (ACG and their counsel) and these folks providing affidavits will then be subject to the deposition process. That may be no big deal to some folks...to others providing an affidavit it may be a very big deal and something they would prefer to stear clear of. Why not let people know what they may be exposing themselves to if they agree to provide an affidavit. I've solicited affidavits on behalf of clients many times...but never without telling the affiant what they may be exposing themselves to by agreeing to provide the written affidavit.

jeffnpcb · February 5, 2003 9:10AM

The same crap your are spouting can be said about any grading company! Take any slabbed coin and send it to the competition and they will send it back!!!!

I ran into this problem submitting NGC to PCGS and vice versa and nether would cross

If you believe you have a problem, contact the company with your complaint and have it solved!! I wish you forum posters would stop trying to slander and libel grading companies!! After all, all you do is through out the grading companies and pay no attention to the coin!

The coins are genuine, the points may be off, but you get what you pay for from any company! Look at the problems of the so called god{PCGS} and you trully can't trust anyone in third party grading!!!! Solve your gripes on your own and stop the slander and libel that is being spread!! I know you experts can always accurately grade coins from scans and photos on this site!

BUY THE COIN, NOT THE SLAB!!!!

NumisEd · February 5, 2003 9:20AM

jeffnpcb, what in the world are you babbling about? To whom are you directing your tirade?

MAULUMALL · February 5, 2003 9:28AM

<< jeffnpcb, what in the world are you babbling about? To whom are you directing your tirade? >>

I was kinda wondering that myself.

Ira has always tried to be helpful to any that had a question on the RCC boards.I believe he was man o'the year for RCC readers.

danreller · February 5, 2003 9:50AM

Hi Ira,

I have recorded an eBay transaction that I had with AH Collectibles showing a coin ( with pictures) that I purchased when I re-entered the collecting arena years ago that clearly shows a mis-graded and mis-attributed coin that is worth Much less in both regards respectfully. I have had zero luck with private mailings (even though I have tried around 7 times) so please contact me at... dreller@hotmail.com and I will give you an e-mail address with which I can supply more information of my transaction. Any support I can provide will be extended to you.

Sincerely,

Dan

jeffnpcb · February 5, 2003 9:58AM

TO ALL POSTS LAMBASTING GRADING COMPANIES REGARDLESS OF THEIR LABEL!!!
Buy the coin, not the slab. Resolve your problems with the company! 99.9% of the time you will get the same answer from all of them that it is subjective and you have to discuss your situation with the grader! Yeh, like that will ever happen! Most companies will do whatever possible to make things right, but not if your snide with them from the outset!!

stujoe · February 5, 2003 10:09AM

<< 

<< jeffnpcb, what in the world are you babbling about? To whom are you directing your tirade? >>

I was kinda wondering that myself. Ira has always tried to be helpful to any that had a question on the RCC boards.I believe he was man o'the year for RCC readers. >>

Yes, he was the RCC MOTY and it is well deserved. Kind of still is since no MOTY for 2002 has been voted on yet.

K6AZ · February 5, 2003 10:17AM

<< TO ALL POSTS LAMBASTING GRADING COMPANIES REGARDLESS OF THEIR LABEL!!!
Buy the coin, not the slab. Resolve your problems with the company! 99.9% of the time you will get the same answer from all of them that it is subjective and you have to discuss your situation with the grader! Yeh, like that will ever happen! Most companies will do whatever possible to make things right, but not if your snide with them from the outset!! >>

You obviously don't have a clue. So tell me oh great one, how do you buy the coin and not the slab when you are nowhere near a shop and can not travel to shows? How do you buy the coin and not the holder when the seller does not have a return policy on "certified" (usually PCI, NTC and ACG) coins? It is pretty clear to me that you have no experience comparing PCI/NTC/ACG coins to those in PCGS/NGC/ANACS
slabs. Heck, you may even be an ACG shill for all I know.

jeffnpcb · February 5, 2003 10:22AM

Well maybe I'll post my Proof 67 Cam and Dcams from 1950 to 1964 with the 1961 proof 67 DDO{highest grade from PCGS] and the 1963 DDR proof 65 Cam[ Only Cam graded by PCGS] for Roosevelt dimes, but my vanity doesn't exceed your expectations!!

Wanted: Dissatisfied ACG (Accugrade) dealers or collectors

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