Enhanced is correct. This coin is AT all the way. Look at the stars in the blowup photo. They have no toning next to them. The coin literally screams AT. PCGS is better than any one else at catching AT but they still make mistakes. Clever people know that two sided means AT so they have figured out how to make one side different than the other. As long as the money is there, they will find a way to get them into the plastic.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
Sorry guys, have to disagree. I believe the toning on this one is original. Don't think I would pay a grand for the coin, but I would have no worries about ATing.
Look at the stars in the blowup photo. They have no toning next to them.
Many collectors take that a sign of originality; I can't tell you the scientific reason(s), but for some reason the metal at specific areas you mention, seem to be resistant to toning.
Clever people know that two sided means AT No, clever people don't make baseless statements - most coins that tone in an album will tone on both sides. It may be more significant on one side or the other, but there is usually SOME color on both sides. Also, it only takes both sides of a coin to remain in contact with the surface that is causing the reaction; is that so impossible to believe?!
Now, if you are on of our resident collectors who believe that "all" toning resulting from storage is "artificial" then I suppose nothing I point out will matter, and ...
I cannot say with certainty, how this coin became this way; I only want to point out that those two statments are without foundation, and may mislead others to use the same faulty logic.
If the area around the stars is not toned, that usually does mean that the toning is original. Plus the colors evenly flow in to each other. Another sign of original toning. In my opinion, this coin is completely original. The obverse isn't to die for, but the reverse is awesome.
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever. -Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
The spot by the mouth does make it look weird-looks like Liberty is blowing a bubble with bubble gum.
<<<Clever people know that two sided means AT No, clever people don't make baseless statements - most coins that tone in an album will tone on both sides.<<<<<< AMEN BROTHER!!
<<<Now, if you are on of our resident collectors who believe that "all" toning resulting from storage is "artificial" then I suppose nothing I point out will matter, and ...<<<<<< Hey that's me! Since the mint didn't use Whitman, Dansco and WR albums to store Morgans it's certianly not "original" but at the same time I don't consider it AT.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
I believe that not only is the toning genuine on this piece, but the colors on the obverse are accurately portrayed. This very coin was offered previously on E-bay by another California dealer, perhaps a year and a half ago. That dealer's scans are usually accurate (although I've criticized his prices for being outrageous), and the current scan from CG is, if anything, more conservatively presented than the previous scan. Also, I've seen other pieces with all of the colors shown by CG, although not necessarily on the same coin.
The reverse of the coin appears bag toned, with lovely rainbow colors. No question here about its bonifides. So, why would anyone intentionally tone the obverse of an already toned reverse? That makes no sense when there are millions of white coins to play with.
I've seen other genuinely toned dollars with the area surrounding the stars untoned. Since that area is somewhat protected by the star, this could partly explain that result. Curiously, the other coins which appear to exhibit this effect most prominently are dated 1882-s too, so perhaps those coins were treated in some way in these areas at the mint.
The color of the PCGS tab is accurately shown. This is usually a sign that the picture is not enhanced. Interesting, the reverse is not always true. Sometimes to obtain the most accurate scan of the coin itself it becomes necessary to distort the colors of the grading tab. Yet, if for example, you see the usual NGC brown bordered tab appear, say, dark red, and a similar hue appears on the scan of the coin, then it's a good bet that the coin itself will be brown and not red in that area.
The CG coin looks to me to be 65+, and bumped a little by PCGS for color. Moreover, the grading services seem to go lightly in assessing the grade of an otherwise attractively colored coin despite it having some distraction in the toning pattern, such as appears here.
The toning imperfection irself could be a water mark. If some sweat, for example, fell on the coin, and the coin was then patted dry with non-porous cloth, the original toning pattern could have been disturbed.
I know that in the past I've been hard on CG's auction practices. However, in his recent sales, I've been a lot more comfortable with both the accuracy of his scans and the depth of true competition for his offerings.
The reasons I have been particularly critical of CG in the past relates to the fact that he is such a major presence in the toned coin market, both on E-bay and at shows. If there is even the appearance that his offerings are suspect, then that tends to cast doubt on the credibility of the toned coin market. More directly, if there is any substance to these appearances, relating to any big market sellers, then it's important for any of us to alert other board members of this possibility, assuming that the alert is backed up by plausible reasons for those concerns.
In any event, for the present coin, I think anyone can bid safely here without fear of getting a coin that is misrepresented either in picuture or in person. The only question is, is it worth over $1000? The answer to that I'll leave to you.
Looks like a great coin to me when I first saw it a day or so ago. The stars thing is NOT a reliable indicator of AT or not AT. The shadow effect should be ignored and other factors considered.
<<Enhanced is correct. This coin is AT all the way. Look at the stars in the blowup photo. They have no toning next to them. The coin literally screams AT.>>
eagle7, Once again, you have NO clue what you're talking about, and you should consider prefacing your comments regarding toned coins to: "This is just my uninformed opinion" so that inexperienced people don't take your comments seriously.
Seller has sold alot of BBQed coins but they seem to get slabbed by the best so go figure. Maybe it is real toning.
I am no Morgan expert but by casual observation it seems most heavily toned Morgans are common dates. Is this because the doctors don't want to risk damaging a more expensive coin? I can;t recall the last ime i saw a rare date wild colored Morgan.
Bottom line, I would not pay more than $50, the obverse is gross looking. Rev. is OK.
Toning looks OK to me. Those who hate toning or believe 2 sided toning is AT, leave it all alone. Leave it for those of us love toning and we'll take our chances with what we know. Kscope
Just a question for you tone experts. How long will coins with nice toning stay that way? Will they continue toning until eventually it is so thick it loses it's beauty? What about AT coins, if they were toned fast that way wont they continue toning at an accelerated rate and become ugly in a short time? I don't know anything about toning(except that I like it) and am just curious. TNG
<< it seems most heavily toned Morgans are common dates. Is this because the doctors don't want to risk damaging a more expensive coin?>>
DesertLizard,
No, it has nothing to do with that reasoning, it's because common dates ARE common dates because there were so many unopened bags of them in existence until the 50's, 60's, and 70's, and because of their high initial mintages. Since many of the beautifully toned dollars got that way from sitting untouched in sealed mint bags of 1000 for many years, it stands to reason that these would also be some of the most available dates in the series both in MS and with pretty colors. If there were hundreds or thousands of bags of 1893-S dollars out there, then there would also be a correspondingly relatively large number of beautiful toned 1893-S out there too.
Many of the commonest dates in MS and also the ones most often seen with beautiful colors are:
<< <i> I am no Morgan expert but by casual observation it seems most heavily toned Morgans are common dates. Is this because the doctors don't want to risk damaging a more expensive coin? I can;t recall the last ime i saw a rare date wild colored Morgan. >>
are you telling me this coin is ugly? and look at its condition
I'd like to point out that my reply to Gilbert didn't mean that I think the coin is album & AT. "The spot by the mouth does make it look weird-looks like Liberty is blowing a bubble with bubble gum." was my only applicable remark concerning this coin. With that being said it's clearly toned from a mint bag. Laying obv side nearest to the bag and the rev was near a fold or maybe laying on a sideways stack of other coins in the bag.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
JBSteven the beautiful proof coin which you linked to is original toning. Morgan Dollar Proofs came in paper envelopes from the mint. Some which were stored improperly became darkly toned and unattractive. Lots of them on sale today as washed out over dipped pr62 and pr63. The one pictured was properly stored and is a true beauty and worth the price one pays for it. I know I have made some dealers mad with my comments and let me say that most dealers are fair and honest. I just think that soon the goose with the golden egg may be killed. Simply put, when the AT bubble bursts, your 1884-O in the PCGS 64 holder will be worth about 50.00. If you spent 1500 for it I dont think PCGS will give you any money for your toning. Im sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. Coin world has had two major printings about AT in the late nineties. The internet is full of information. Just type in "artificial toning" in your browser. The ANA library is full of information about AT. The VAM book has a full chapter on Toning, both real and AT. Im just saying to new collectors if you want to collect this area, go ahead but read first before you spend thousands of dollars for what would otherwise be a fifty dollar coin. By the way I would spend way more than market for the proof in the picture, if I had the money. And by the way Dragon I never saw any wild toning on the common dollars coming out of those bags in the mid sixties. Saw very few at coin shows in the early eighties and early nineties. See them all the time now. Go figure!
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
<<And by the way Dragon I never saw any wild toning on the common dollars coming out of those bags in the mid sixties. Saw very few at coin shows in the early eighties and early nineties. See them all the time now. >>
eagle7, Simply put, you don't have a clue what you're talking about regarding toned dollars and original bags. Just because YOU didn't see any in the MINISCULE sampling you may or may not have seen has no relevance to the number of beautifully toned pieces that came out of original bags.
As examples: Have you ever seen any of the HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of absolutely killer toned dollars that came out of The Continental Bank Hoard in Chicago???? How about all of the absolute monster toned dollars that came out of hoards auctioned off by Superior Galleries in the 70's and 80's, such as the Club Cal-Neva Sale and many others?? How about all the 1000's of nicely toned CC dollars from the massive GSA hoard that the govt. had sitting around in mint sealed bags?? What about all of the beautifully toned pieces that were uncovered in the Binion Hoard and subsequently all slabbed by NGC?? Do you want me to continue??
It is rediculous for you to say that all these monster toned dollars are AT just because YOU didn't see any in the pittance of coins you may have looked through a long time ago. Know the facts before making totally false and baseless statements.
All right mr dragon you got me. I just could not see how someone would want to pay 999.00 for a coin that has such an ugly obverse(to my eyes of course). Other people may think the coin in question is worth more than 999.00 USD. Do you? What would you pay for that particular coin? Im not trying to be inflammatory. I would really like to know if you would pay that much. Thanks.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
<< <i>All right mr dragon you got me. I just could not see how someone would want to pay 999.00 for a coin that has such an ugly obverse(to my eyes of course). >>
So when you can't see why someone would pay a price for a coin they like.... you call it all AT? I think you love the coin and are upset you can't own it.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i>JBSteven the beautiful proof coin which you linked to is original toning. Morgan Dollar Proofs came in paper envelopes from the mint >>
I am fully aware of toning in reguards to the proof I listed a link too. Maybe you should read my post and who I was referring too (desertlizard) about toning. I am aware of what toning is.
Looks like she is throwing up. Thats what I would do too if I paid over 999.00 for this sick lady. The reserve is not met at 999.00 WOW!
Comments
K S
My Website
"Everything I have is for sale except for my wife and my dog....and I'm not sure about one of them."
<< <i>Look at the stars in the blowup photo. They have no toning next to them >>
Unless I have been misinformed this is a sign of true toning.
Many collectors take that a sign of originality; I can't tell you the scientific reason(s), but for some reason the metal at specific areas you mention, seem to be resistant to toning.
Clever people know that two sided means AT No, clever people don't make baseless statements - most coins that tone in an album will tone on both sides. It may be more significant on one side or the other, but there is usually SOME color on both sides. Also, it only takes both sides of a coin to remain in contact with the surface that is causing the reaction; is that so impossible to believe?!
Now, if you are on of our resident collectors who believe that "all" toning resulting from storage is "artificial" then I suppose nothing I point out will matter, and ...
I cannot say with certainty, how this coin became this way; I only want to point out that those two statments are without foundation, and may mislead others to use the same faulty logic.
For some life lasts a short while, but the memories it holds last forever.
-Laura Swenson
In memory of BL, SM, and KG. 16 and forever young, rest in peace.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<<<Clever people know that two sided means AT No, clever people don't make baseless statements - most coins that tone in an album will tone on both sides.<<<<<<
AMEN BROTHER!!
<<<Now, if you are on of our resident collectors who believe that "all" toning resulting from storage is "artificial" then I suppose nothing I point out will matter, and ...<<<<<<
Hey that's me! Since the mint didn't use Whitman, Dansco and WR albums to store Morgans it's certianly not "original" but at the same time I don't consider it AT.
Coins toned on both sides can very easily be, and are, original. The flow is what give this coin away as original.
The toning should be reversed. If the reverse toning were on the obverse, it would be worth the bucks.
The obverse is too dark in my opinion. Not sure I like the bubble gum blowoing look.
In any case good luck!
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
My question is, since PCGS market grades, if this coin was blast white, would it still be MS66? ($200) or could it be MS65 ($100) or even MS64 ($50)?
So does the beautiful toning increase the value of this coin by over 5X, or 10X or 20X ?
I am just curious what members think -
The reverse of the coin appears bag toned, with lovely rainbow colors. No question here about its bonifides. So, why would anyone intentionally tone the obverse of an already toned reverse? That makes no sense when there are millions of white coins to play with.
I've seen other genuinely toned dollars with the area surrounding the stars untoned. Since that area is somewhat protected by the star, this could partly explain that result. Curiously, the other coins which appear to exhibit this effect most prominently are dated 1882-s too, so perhaps those coins were treated in some way in these areas at the mint.
The color of the PCGS tab is accurately shown. This is usually a sign that the picture is not enhanced. Interesting, the reverse is not always true. Sometimes to obtain the most accurate scan of the coin itself it becomes necessary to distort the colors of the grading tab. Yet, if for example, you see the usual NGC brown bordered tab appear, say, dark red, and a similar hue appears on the scan of the coin, then it's a good bet that the coin itself will be brown and not red in that area.
The CG coin looks to me to be 65+, and bumped a little by PCGS for color. Moreover, the grading services seem to go lightly in assessing the grade of an otherwise attractively colored coin despite it having some distraction in the toning pattern, such as appears here.
The toning imperfection irself could be a water mark. If some sweat, for example, fell on the coin, and the coin was then patted dry with non-porous cloth, the original toning pattern could have been disturbed.
I know that in the past I've been hard on CG's auction practices. However, in his recent sales, I've been a lot more comfortable with both the accuracy of his scans and the depth of true competition for his offerings.
The reasons I have been particularly critical of CG in the past relates to the fact that he is such a major presence in the toned coin market, both on E-bay and at shows. If there is even the appearance that his offerings are suspect, then that tends to cast doubt on the credibility of the toned coin market. More directly, if there is any substance to these appearances, relating to any big market sellers, then it's important for any of us to alert other board members of this possibility, assuming that the alert is backed up by plausible reasons for those concerns.
In any event, for the present coin, I think anyone can bid safely here without fear of getting a coin that is misrepresented either in picuture or in person. The only question is, is it worth over $1000? The answer to that I'll leave to you.
eagle7, Once again, you have NO clue what you're talking about, and you should consider prefacing your comments regarding toned coins to: "This is just my uninformed opinion" so that inexperienced people don't take your comments seriously.
dragon
TBT
I am no Morgan expert but by casual observation it seems most heavily toned Morgans are common dates. Is this because the doctors don't want to risk damaging a more expensive coin? I can;t recall the last ime i saw a rare date wild colored Morgan.
Bottom line, I would not pay more than $50, the obverse is gross looking. Rev. is OK.
Kscope
A "fire spitter"!
I don't know anything about toning(except that I like it) and am just curious.
TNG
1969s WCLR-001 counterclash
DesertLizard,
No, it has nothing to do with that reasoning, it's because common dates ARE common dates because there were so many unopened bags of them in existence until the 50's, 60's, and 70's, and because of their high initial mintages. Since many of the beautifully toned dollars got that way from sitting untouched in sealed mint bags of 1000 for many years, it stands to reason that these would also be some of the most available dates in the series both in MS and with pretty colors. If there were hundreds or thousands of bags of 1893-S dollars out there, then there would also be a correspondingly relatively large number of beautiful toned 1893-S out there too.
Many of the commonest dates in MS and also the ones most often seen with beautiful colors are:
1880-S
1881-S
1882-S
1883-O
1884-O
1885-P
1885-O
1886-P
1887-P
dragon
<< <i>
I am no Morgan expert but by casual observation it seems most heavily toned Morgans are common dates. Is this because the doctors don't want to risk damaging a more expensive coin? I can;t recall the last ime i saw a rare date wild colored Morgan. >>
are you telling me this coin is ugly? and look at its condition
desertlizard: could this be AT? doubt it
"The spot by the mouth does make it look weird-looks like Liberty is blowing a bubble with bubble gum." was my only applicable remark concerning this coin.
With that being said it's clearly toned from a mint bag. Laying obv side nearest to the bag and the rev was near a fold or maybe laying on a sideways stack of other coins in the bag.
eagle7, Simply put, you don't have a clue what you're talking about regarding toned dollars and original bags. Just because YOU didn't see any in the MINISCULE sampling you may or may not have seen has no relevance to the number of beautifully toned pieces that came out of original bags.
As examples: Have you ever seen any of the HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of absolutely killer toned dollars that came out of The Continental Bank Hoard in Chicago???? How about all of the absolute monster toned dollars that came out of hoards auctioned off by Superior Galleries in the 70's and 80's, such as the Club Cal-Neva Sale and many others?? How about all the 1000's of nicely toned CC dollars from the massive GSA hoard that the govt. had sitting around in mint sealed bags?? What about all of the beautifully toned pieces that were uncovered in the Binion Hoard and subsequently all slabbed by NGC?? Do you want me to continue??
It is rediculous for you to say that all these monster toned dollars are AT just because YOU didn't see any in the pittance of coins you may have looked through a long time ago. Know the facts before making totally false and baseless statements.
dragon
<< <i>All right mr dragon you got me. I just could not see how someone would want to pay 999.00 for a coin that has such an ugly obverse(to my eyes of course). >>
So when you can't see why someone would pay a price for a coin they like.... you call it all AT? I think you love the coin and are upset you can't own it.
<< <i>JBSteven the beautiful proof coin which you linked to is original toning. Morgan Dollar Proofs came in paper envelopes from the mint >>
I am fully aware of toning in reguards to the proof I listed a link too. Maybe you should read my post and who I was referring too (desertlizard) about toning. I am aware of what toning is.