Is PSA Held Liable??
mrichards
Posts: 140
Hi Everyone,
This is a really good question and maybe some of my peers (all of you) can shed some light on this subject? PSA is the company who guarantees their grades. They are also the same company who makes the holder in which a card from $1.00 to $1,000,000.00 sits in. If a 3rd party, (a dishonest dealer, seller or collector) cracks out the card and puts a lower graded card and seals it so it looks perfect, who is ultimately responsible? After all PSA is the company who makes the holder? Pro also makes their own holder. Their holder in my opinion is much more tamper proof than PSA's. Even though Pro graded cards aren't worth the price of the holder. After all, for my 52 Bowman set, I have paid thousands for PSA graded cards to complete my set and so have most of you. Common sense also tells me if you look at a PSA 8 and it looks like a 6 or has a small wrinkle that was missed, you send it back to PSA and they reimburse you for the price paid for the card. But what if the card was switched? Now I am beat for the money I paid because I am supporting and buying a PSA graded product and their case was too easy to open/tamper with? I only collect PSA graded cards because I belive and support their product and that is why (in my opinion) 100% of all of us stand behind them. Should they be liable for their holder? I know they have new/redesigned security features on the holder but what about the older holders and cards? It is a sensitive topic and I support PSA in everything they do. On the other hand, I do not want to start worrying about this issue and I want to still continue to collect high end PSA graded cards and build PSA only high-end graded sets. My common sense tells me if Wiwag got busted and there was a character last year at a major show doing this, how many other people are doing this and how many people realize the new PSA holder has the security and will focus/prey on the older holders? What do you think?
Mike
This is a really good question and maybe some of my peers (all of you) can shed some light on this subject? PSA is the company who guarantees their grades. They are also the same company who makes the holder in which a card from $1.00 to $1,000,000.00 sits in. If a 3rd party, (a dishonest dealer, seller or collector) cracks out the card and puts a lower graded card and seals it so it looks perfect, who is ultimately responsible? After all PSA is the company who makes the holder? Pro also makes their own holder. Their holder in my opinion is much more tamper proof than PSA's. Even though Pro graded cards aren't worth the price of the holder. After all, for my 52 Bowman set, I have paid thousands for PSA graded cards to complete my set and so have most of you. Common sense also tells me if you look at a PSA 8 and it looks like a 6 or has a small wrinkle that was missed, you send it back to PSA and they reimburse you for the price paid for the card. But what if the card was switched? Now I am beat for the money I paid because I am supporting and buying a PSA graded product and their case was too easy to open/tamper with? I only collect PSA graded cards because I belive and support their product and that is why (in my opinion) 100% of all of us stand behind them. Should they be liable for their holder? I know they have new/redesigned security features on the holder but what about the older holders and cards? It is a sensitive topic and I support PSA in everything they do. On the other hand, I do not want to start worrying about this issue and I want to still continue to collect high end PSA graded cards and build PSA only high-end graded sets. My common sense tells me if Wiwag got busted and there was a character last year at a major show doing this, how many other people are doing this and how many people realize the new PSA holder has the security and will focus/prey on the older holders? What do you think?
Mike
Always looking for 1952 Bowmans and 1953 Johnston Cookies PSA 8's and higher.
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Comments
If you buy a car from a used car salesman who dumped ketchup in the transmission so it would appear work during your test drive, but you got it home and it went out. You can't call Honda, GM, or Ford and sue them because the transmission they made was messed with by somebody after the fact. It doesn't work like that.
If that was the case half of the bullcrap dealers on Ebay who sell wax boxes, vending cases, etc., and have already opened them and sorted through them, and then re-sealed them, doesn't make Upper Deck or Fleer responsible either.
Mike
McNeil only made these moves, not out of a sense of altruism, nor any liability, stated or implied......... they did it to protect the brand name. It was just good business on their parts. Just how many tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars had they spent to build and grow their brand name?
PSA don't claim that their cases are tamper proof but tamper evident. To me that means that it is possible to open the case (which many of us have done in the past) but to put the case back together after is has been opened will leave evidence of this fact. This seems to be the case with the WIWAG story.
PSA could not be liable for somebody trying to reseal holders and sell them of as original, because according to PSA the reseal would be evident. It would be wether this reseal is evident that any case would be based around.
Matt
Theoretically, we all had the same ability to pull this scam... we are just more ethical...
I follow your tylenol argument~ and who knows? if some of the big spenders and heavy investors were to bring a suit against psa... maybe you'd get a judge to agree... I doubt it... but if it did happen, the downside would be that the entire graded hobby would likey fall apart...
all of us who got screwed want someone to blame.. want to hold someone accountable and want justice for ourselves...
I just don't think that anything will happen that will be satisfying for us. PSA also got screwed... While I have never been a huge fan of their holders... The holders are adequate and do not invite or welcome tampering.
From here on out... it seems that psa's future is completely in their hands... Some very esteemed and reputable people on these boards have raised concerns and I trust that PSA will respond to them soon... whether that means new holders, reimbursements or even just a more detailed letter by them describing how to protect ourselves and our cards...
I don't think that there is any kind way of saying this... but when wiwag or anyone else is accused of commiting these shamelful scams we all lose.
I do not believe that it is a terribly easy scam to get away with... but apparently it is possible... and perhaps even likely to occur again.
There's simply too much money at stake and so many impulsive and uneducated buyers out there.
My own view about the card business in general is that it is very shady... One always has to be careful with what one buys and whom they buy from... I fully trusted wiwag. I bought many cards from them that have since been recycled on ebay.
The great thing about buying graded cards from psa is that it eliminates the uncertainty of whether your card is authentic and the grade helps assign a value in the market place.
I still believe that psa is the best place to acquire these services...
Click here to view my Knickstars collection and wantlist
Great reply/opinion.
From here on out... it seems that psa's future is completely in their hands... Some very esteemed and reputable people on these boards have raised concerns and I trust that PSA will respond to them soon... whether that means new holders, reimbursements or even just a more detailed letter by them describing how to protect ourselves and our cards...
I do not think a reimbursement is in order. More info on what they are doing to prevent this in the future is. We need to be informed. Making a better holder (in my opinion), definitely!
The graded card market because of PSA made the hobby what it is today. Fantastic! They just need to be a little more consistent. Instead of telling us all about how much a PSA 9 Mantle brought in the last superior auction, they should tell us what they are doing on bettering their company and resolving/diffusing a difficult issue/situation like this.
Have a nice night,
Mike
or "if in you're hands it makes one feel blue, the liability in on YOU!"
all grading services have gigantic disclaimers! Send a raw mint card in and it comes back crimped in a 5 holder...too bad!
expert collector rules Texas
Actually everything I stated is 100% accurate.
They are not responsible.
Tylenol was not indicted or held responsible for any of those actions. They initiated all of the actions on their own, and in conjunction with federal help to come up with a better solution, but they in no way paid out any damages based on the manufacturing of their bottles.
However, that is part of what helped them survive with their business in tact. Fear is the absolute greatest motivator in the world. They feared losing their business and decided on a swift course of action to alleviate that fear.
I don't think this situation rivals anything close to that.
I inspect every holder I purchase from someone, as well as the card inside and the label. Mainly the inspection of the cards so as to compare my own submissions and hopefully develop a better eye.
But, the bottomline is PSA is not in anyway responsible for damages based on a third party's tampering with their product. You can easily access all of the information on their holders from this website which contains information on how you can tell if your holder has been opened. Obviously WIWAG became pretty good at concealing it. But, that does not make them liable at all. They are not an fraud enforcement agency. Just a grading company. That's the FBI's job, which apparently they accomplished.