Can of Worms.. How can a "Toned" Coin be "Mint State"

AbesNeighbor · January 17, 2003 9:22PM

The definition of "Mint State" seems to imply that a coin looks just as it did when it left the Mint.

By definition, then, Toned coins are eliminated. Toned coins are nothing more than coins that are contaminated by the elements and chemical reactions.

I will admit that some have gorgeous toning, but I don't see how they can receive an "MS" designation.

Maybe there should be a special class for toned coins? Another issue, of course is "Artificial Toning". I would suspect that many choice coins have been artificially toned.

Dan

KlectorKid · January 17, 2003 9:24PM

Mint State is the grade, if it hasnt been circulated then its Mint State.

AbesNeighbor · January 17, 2003 9:28PM

That doesn't convice me. If a coin is Tarnished, I mean toned, doesn't that effect mint luster and grade...Strike is really only part of the grade.

KlectorKid · January 17, 2003 9:32PM

toning is such a thin layer that it doesnt affect the grade, unless it is pretty and gets higher or ugly and gets lower. Luster is not what determins the mintstate grade, but luster usually is just under the toning, unless it has been cleaned and retoned or something along those lines.

barberlover · January 17, 2003 9:47PM

I'm not going to defend my my stance on this issue any more, rather i think it's important to think on older mint state coins, what were the means of storage available at different time periods to collectors of a past era. If i saw a new kennedy half that was minted only a few years ago and looked like it was minted yesterday with bright silver/white surfaces, i'd believe it because of proper means of storage that exist today to help preserve a coin "as struck" But ask yourself what means of storage did a coin collector have 100-200 years ago to preserve the coins they got from the bank or where ever they accuired it from to preserve the origonal as struck look ? I've heard the term "origanel white" used in describing older mint state coins, but before the invention of modern plastics, what methods of storage did the old time collectors have to keep there bust, seated & barber coins from toning over the years ?

AbesNeighbor · January 17, 2003 9:53PM

I agree with what you are saying about storage issues...and, I will say I have seen some beatifully toned, well struck coins. I've also seen some very, very old coins that are MS and deserve the designation because they have been well preserved. So, why should they be graded the same as those not so well preserved that became toned?

I know, by the way that there are a lot of collectors who collect only toned coins...I guess I would say they should just have a different category for them.

I have a proof set inwhich one of the coins has become "Toned" to some degree. The rest look like they were struck yesterday...Are they the same.

andy007 · January 17, 2003 10:00PM

So, what would you call coins with alloy impurities that cause streaking on copper and nickel coinage or spots commonly encountered on silver coinage? They came from the mint that way, if they were detectable or not at the time, do we now need another category and so on and so on.

To me, Mint state refers to the condition or state of preservation of a coin, not a state of preservation relative to the exact color associated with said coin upon its striking.

AbesNeighbor · January 17, 2003 10:09PM

Good point Andy! It just seems to me that some think because a coin has "Beautiful Toning" it ought to be graded higher...without concern to the coins preservation... In other words, the toning becomes more important than the "Condition".

Bit I'll quit spouting off about this...I know I'm inthe minority...:-)

tjkillian · January 17, 2003 10:11PM

Mint state has a special meaning in numismatics. It means that an expert on a particular coin can not detect any wear caused by being in circulation. That is how toned coins, or coins with roll friction, cabinet friction, etc can be mint state. Any compentent metalurgist will tell you that all metals react to their enviroment, which includes oxygen. Chemical reactions continuously occur, just some slower than others.

Tom

KlectorKid · January 17, 2003 10:21PM

A coin will tone, its not from being stored badly! If what you say is correct that means that means every toned coin has been circulated, I dont think so. Toning happens to coins its natural, every coin has some toning the second after it was struck it had toning! because the second the metal hits the air it starts toning. So that means there are no mint-state coins?

andy007 · January 17, 2003 10:30PM

I agree with you Dan in that coins that have been bumped a point or more due only to toning are a problem. However, there are many instances where I see how the graders would give a technically nice MS65 and grade it MS66 due to suberb, eye appealing toning, because eye appeal is most certainly a factor in a coins final grade. The same thing goes for white coins as well, if there is a superbly struck or intensely lustrous white coin that may only merit a technical MS65, many times they will and should be graded MS66 because of their outstanding qualities.

kaleidoscopic · January 17, 2003 10:33PM

Mint State should refer to the physical state of the coin with respect to wear. Toning is part of the reaction of metals, in a particular environment. I like toning. I don't like intentional toning passed off as original, or unintended, or accidental, etc.

If you don't like toning, you are allowed not to. Just one less person looking for what I am. Good luck in whatever direction your collection goes. Kscope

braddick · January 17, 2003 10:45PM

Forget calling it "MintState"- just use the term "Uncirculated".
Would you agree a toned coin that has not circulated is "Uncirculated"? If so, then the next logical step is that same "Uncirculated" coin is "MintState".

kaleidoscopic · January 17, 2003 10:52PM

If I pull a coin out of change without wear, its uncirculated. Although its been in circulation. It is all in respect to wear. The more wear, contact marks, the lower the grade. Kscope

braddick · January 17, 2003 10:57PM

Kscope- I agree with you, I was just trying to simplify the terms for this example.

I think of the NGC MS67 Mule Sac was was pulled from a cash register in a lunch room as a good example of your thinking!

I'm only making the logical leap that an Uncirculated coin (like you said: a coin with NO wear or mishandling) is also termed, MintState.

kaleidoscopic · January 17, 2003 11:05PM

Braddick, no problem. Likely I misunderstood you. BTW, I've enjoyed many of your past posts. Damn, its too early for this. Kscope

MadMonk · January 17, 2003 11:05PM

it better be, or I'm in deep poopoo!

Seriously, absolutely yes. Wear is the determining factor. Toning falls under eye appeal.

Steve27 · January 17, 2003 11:19PM

I think a better question is, can a damaged coin be considered mint state, and isn't toning a form of damage?

MadMonk · January 17, 2003 11:26PM

Toning is Patina. Remove the patina from an antique, and see what that does to the value.
Is a dipped coin mintstate?
Scientific proof that that is definitly wear.... Thimk I'll start a new thread.

mr1931S · January 18, 2003 12:04AM

a mint-state coin,toned or not,is one that has no discernible wear...it's really that simple...
it's possible to find what most will consider to be a mint-state coin from circulation...

TomB · January 18, 2003 12:36AM

To address the original premise, a mint state coin is defined as a coin that has no wear; it is not defined as a coin that looks exactly as it left the mint. If you confuse the definition then you encounter the problem mentioned above.

As a side note, if people have problems calling toned coins mint state, how do those people feel about calling coins that have been dipped?

Twowood · January 18, 2003 12:49AM

That's a very interesting question and ,as we see on this thread, an argument can be made on both sides. I've got a number of coins that
discolored after they were slabbed and graded MS. Also, I've seen discolored coins slabbed by PCGS/ NGC as MS...that's good enuf for me to believe that discoloration doesn't affect grade. Twowood

Gemini · January 18, 2003 1:12AM

Anyone having toned coins with some pretty colors on them and feel that they are no longer Mint State because of this please notify me for a quick AU price offer...

LucyBop · January 18, 2003 2:26AM

My response may rehash what some have already stated. Mint State is a state of preservation. A MS69 coin has a better state of preservation then a ms62 coin which is still mint state but has more indications of wear maybe due to roll rub and excessive hits on the coin. Both are Mint State. Toning that comes from a chemical reaction to the silver surface that results in a oxide growth of a coin isn't wear.

mr1931S · January 18, 2003 2:45AM

Can a damaged coin be considerered mint-state?

Sure can...damage isn't wear and wear isn't damage.

a strictly uncirculated coin with significant damage,which without the damage would be considered "gem" or "choice", can be and often is "net-graded" to MS60 for pricing purposes...

braddick · January 18, 2003 3:05AM

A damaged coin is no longer MintState in my opinion and experience.
Damage is an alteration to the coin- whether intentional or not, that precludes the MintState designation at that point.
Damage (mishandling) will prevent a coin from remaining in MintState as I believe damage equates to circulation.

cladking · January 18, 2003 7:37AM

When a planchet is struck by the dies the metal will act much as a fluid for
an instant. It is pushed into the recesses of the dies and flows out toward
the edges of the coin. It also becomes somewhat work hardened and gets
a thin "skin" which we refer to as luster. It is this luster which defines a
coin being in mint state or in circulated condition. As a coin is exposed to
the normal rigors of circulation it begins to wear from the high points first.
It takes some time for the thin skin to be breached. When the luster is no
longer intact the coin is no longer unc. It doesn't really matter exactly what
caused the luster to be broken, once it is broken it's not mint state. By the
same oken it doesn't matter if the coin is in circulation or not, if the luster is
intact then it's unc.

Cutting an unc in two would just give you an unc in two pieces or two uncs.
If the surface of the coin reacts chemically with it's enviroment then it will still
be unc as long as the luster is intact. If the coin is dipped it will normally be
impossible to tell but it will remain unc so long as the luster remains.

Dave99B · January 18, 2003 7:53AM

Hey, let's call white coins DIPPED-60 through DIPPED-70.

This would clear up any confusiion as to how they stayed so white and shiney!

Dave

Gilbert · January 18, 2003 8:48AM

How about we just use the terms and definitions that have been agreed upon and accepted in the hobby as a whole, and when we want to categorize a coin as something else, we call it something else. Isn't that why certain terms were identified and defined; so we could all speak in the same language?

CladKing,
I agree "luster" is one aspect of defining an uncirculated/mint state coin, and I agree it is a "critical" factor in a coin being described as a mint state coin, but luster alone doesn't distinguish a coin as circ or uncirc. A scratch can break a coin's luster, but doesn't automatically render it "circulated".

And for the record, I don't accept that Sac pulled from circulation being graded as a mint state coin. I also find it hard to believe that coin went through "normal" channels AND a vending machine and has no evidence of being in circulation, but I also believe such coins should be in a category unto themselves and it could have been described as having MS XX Details -- the same should apply to the other oddities, but of course, that is all my opinion

Can of Worms.. How can a "Toned" Coin be "Mint State"

Comments

Leave a Comment

Can of Worms.. How can a &quot;Toned&quot; Coin be &quot;Mint State&quot;

Comments

Leave a Comment

Can of Worms.. How can a "Toned" Coin be "Mint State"