Someone mentioned in an earlier thread that PCGS might be one of the bidders trying to buy this coin off of the market. So when I read Mr. Halls reply HERE I thought, well, read it and see what you think.
70,000 coins per month (!) translates to at the very least $15M being spent per year on slabing coins at pcgs alone. at least double it w/ ngc, then throw in anacs, icg, etc. call it $35M. that's before overhead of shipping, insurance, etc!
35 MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR spent on slabing coins!!! dealers HAVE to pass that slabing cost on to SOME-body.
... & who d'ya suppose that might be?
any more questions about why super-duper double-whammy mega-monster pr-70 ultra-deep-camembert blast-red pennies have to sell for stupid prices?
here's how i look at it. today, a pcgs ms-63 morga costs (say) $50. if you assume that in the bad old days, 50% of all coins were whizzed (which is ludicrous - i don't believe nearly as many were whizzed as some would have you believe), but they cost half as much (becuase of not paying the $35M X 10-years = $350 MILLION DOLLARS overhead) exorbitant prices for slabs, i would take my chances on buying 2 coins in the bad old years as opposed to being able to afford only half as many today, & hope that my 50-50 chance would come true.
of course, the bonus was that i was forced to actually learn how to recognize whizzed coins myself. it really isn't that hard - anyone can learn to spot whized coins!
bottom line: are you SURE we get out money's worth out of the fact that coins are slabed? $350 MILLION WORTH?
You also have to look at it this way.Some people can do an excellent job grading coins and maybe dont need a "slab" to tell them what the grade is but they like to have the coins slabbed for conservation purposes or to make the estimated value of the coins easier to figure out when they die some day and the coins are left to loved one's. Im sure if I died and my collection was raw my family would get a lot less from it than if my collection were slabbed.Not because slab's are more liquid but because they could see the grade and get a fair price.If I had a 1921 S Morgan which grade's 65 raw I can see my family easily getting an offer of something like $20 but if that same coin was slabbed MS65 by PCGS they would probably get around $1,000 by looking at the MS65 grade and doing a little price research on the internet.
Yes, anyone can learn to grade, or at least spot obvious cleaning, but in the 35 years I've been collecting, only two folks tried to help me learn. When you go to a dealer to buy a coin, all they tell you is the price, it is up to the buyer to know if it is a deal they can live with or not. Yes, $350million is A LOT of money, but in your assumption you assumed you would only get taken half the time. For someone who does not know to even ask, but still likes coins, they may not find out about the problem coins they bought for years. Slabs have generally helped this hobby.
<< <i>You also have to look at it this way.Some people can do an excellent job grading coins and maybe dont need a "slab" to tell them what the grade is but they like to have the coins slabbed for conservation purposes or to make the estimated value of the coins easier to figure out when they die some day and the coins are left to loved one's. >>
i will continue to be on record to say that spending the & to form a solid relationship w/ a good coin dealer will go much further than an equal amt. of & spent on slabs - for the typical collector. if i were to die tomorrow, my wife knows exactly who to take my coins to, a trusted dealer & friend, that i've spent years cultivating a relationship with. & if they conclude that thye just HAVE to get the coins slabed, they can still do it.
<< <i>Im sure if I died and my collection was raw my family would get a lot less from it than if my collection were slabbed. >>
(see remarks above)
<< <i>Not because slab's are more liquid but because they could see the grade and get a fair price.If I had a 1921 S Morgan which grade's 65 raw I can see my family easily getting an offer of something like $20 but if that same coin was slabbed MS65 by PCGS they would probably get around $1,000 by looking at the MS65 grade and doing a little price research on the internet. >>
again, that's if your working w/ a crummy dealer, who if they were along the lines of what you describe, i would not call a dealer at all, but a "dealer-wannabe". the good dealers who will watch out for you DO exist, but it takes time & effort, & yes, maybe a little $ to find them.
back to the main point i was trying to make. how many times do dealers resubmit the same coins hoping for upgrades? how many times that the 70-dcam-penny get resubmitted? that costs $$$, and ultimately, YOU and I have to pay those costs in the form of higher coin prices.
certain parties get out here on the forum & brag about how the mkt is allegedly skyrocketing, low-pop or pop-top coins are skyrocketing, record prices are being set - how much of this is really a good thing? i'm just trying to ask the question of whether the COST of slabs has truly outweighed the benefits. if you put any faith in my analysis at all, $350 MILLION dollars sounds like an incredibly steep price to me. i'd rather have that in cash & invest it in educational seminars at the ana (for example)
You can buy some pcgs graded coins for less than the cost of the grading fee. That tells me that the grading fee is not always absorbed by the buyer. The value of the coin is more important.
OK $350 Million is not chump change to most folks. If PCGS/NGC/ANACS/PGS were non-existant, a high percentage of the $350 Million dollars of collector's money would have gone to coin doctors, wizzards, cleaners, scammers, etc, etc.... Plus, we wouldn't have the benefit of this PCGS forum around to even discuss this.
Comments
Guess we just have to look for a '63 PR69DC (or is it 68DC...or 68CA) at
a bowers auction with a bunch of spots on it...
35 MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR spent on slabing coins!!! dealers HAVE to pass that slabing cost on to SOME-body.
... & who d'ya suppose that might be?
any more questions about why super-duper double-whammy mega-monster pr-70 ultra-deep-camembert blast-red pennies have to sell for stupid prices?
K S
<< <i>Guess we just have to look for a '63 PR69DC (or is it 68DC...or 68CA) at a bowers auction with a bunch of spots on it... >>
Or a nice 66 DCAM without spots for $25. Sounds like a good deal to me.
jom
Yes, maybe it is $35 million, but it is better than not spending that money. Would you like to go back to the bad ol' days of buying whizzed coins?
Tom
of course, the bonus was that i was forced to actually learn how to recognize whizzed coins myself. it really isn't that hard - anyone can learn to spot whized coins!
bottom line: are you SURE we get out money's worth out of the fact that coins are slabed? $350 MILLION WORTH?
K S
You also have to look at it this way.Some people can do an excellent job grading coins and maybe dont need a "slab" to tell them what the grade is but they like to have the coins slabbed for conservation purposes or to make the estimated value of the coins easier to figure out when they die some day and the coins are left to loved one's.
Im sure if I died and my collection was raw my family would get a lot less from it than if my collection were slabbed.Not because slab's are more liquid but because they could see the grade and get a fair price.If I had a 1921 S Morgan which grade's 65 raw I can see my family easily getting an offer of something like $20 but if that same coin was slabbed MS65 by PCGS they would probably get around $1,000 by looking at the MS65 grade and doing a little price research on the internet.
Yes, anyone can learn to grade, or at least spot obvious cleaning, but in the 35 years I've been collecting, only two folks tried to help me learn. When you go to a dealer to buy a coin, all they tell you is the price, it is up to the buyer to know if it is a deal they can live with or not. Yes, $350million is A LOT of money, but in your assumption you assumed you would only get taken half the time. For someone who does not know to even ask, but still likes coins, they may not find out about the problem coins they bought for years. Slabs have generally helped this hobby.
Tom
<< <i>You also have to look at it this way.Some people can do an excellent job grading coins and maybe dont need a "slab" to tell them what the grade is but they like to have the coins slabbed for conservation purposes or to make the estimated value of the coins easier to figure out when they die some day and the coins are left to loved one's. >>
i will continue to be on record to say that spending the & to form a solid relationship w/ a good coin dealer will go much further than an equal amt. of & spent on slabs - for the typical collector. if i were to die tomorrow, my wife knows exactly who to take my coins to, a trusted dealer & friend, that i've spent years cultivating a relationship with. & if they conclude that thye just HAVE to get the coins slabed, they can still do it.
<< <i>Im sure if I died and my collection was raw my family would get a lot less from it than if my collection were slabbed. >>
(see remarks above)
<< <i>Not because slab's are more liquid but because they could see the grade and get a fair price.If I had a 1921 S Morgan which grade's 65 raw I can see my family easily getting an offer of something like $20 but if that same coin was slabbed MS65 by PCGS they would probably get around $1,000 by looking at the MS65 grade and doing a little price research on the internet. >>
again, that's if your working w/ a crummy dealer, who if they were along the lines of what you describe, i would not call a dealer at all, but a "dealer-wannabe". the good dealers who will watch out for you DO exist, but it takes time & effort, & yes, maybe a little $ to find them.
back to the main point i was trying to make. how many times do dealers resubmit the same coins hoping for upgrades? how many times that the 70-dcam-penny get resubmitted? that costs $$$, and ultimately, YOU and I have to pay those costs in the form of higher coin prices.
certain parties get out here on the forum & brag about how the mkt is allegedly skyrocketing, low-pop or pop-top coins are skyrocketing, record prices are being set - how much of this is really a good thing? i'm just trying to ask the question of whether the COST of slabs has truly outweighed the benefits. if you put any faith in my analysis at all, $350 MILLION dollars sounds like an incredibly steep price to me. i'd rather have that in cash & invest it in educational seminars at the ana (for example)
K S
That tells me that the grading fee is not always absorbed by the buyer. The value of the coin is more important.
This is very true. For several examples, please check out my auctions (link in my sig).
Actually, at shows you will frequently see cases filled with slabs selling for a few dollars.