Revere's 68 Set

Stump

Here is one for you guys to ponder. I know most of you know the enormous task it was for Ron to finish this set in as high of grade as it is but I have a comparison to show that just blew my socks off.My 68 set is currently third right now with a rating of 8.42. With my recent purchases I have 49.5 upgrades coming which will put my rating at 8.48. My set breakdowns as follows
10's--41
9's----259
8's----294
9oc---1
7's----3

Now here is the kicker. I know what I have spent to get to this point. But for me to reach the Revere set I would need 611 upgrades. I believe I did the math right as his GPA is 9.18. I cant fathom how much he spent on this but I am contemplating a deal right now that would give 163 upgrades but will only move me to 8.67 and this deal would cost me 7800.00. Revere truly has a set for the ages.


Dave

toppsgun

I like to think he, like everyone else but me, overpays. I always make wise, economic purchases. Dave, if you feel the same way I do, go ahead and "invest" the $7,800. A year from now, who'll know or care?

Besides, you can't take it with you and there is that bumper sticker you could paste on your car, "He who dies with the most toys wins."

mikeschmidt

The one recent time that I came up against Revere was for the 1968 Topps Leaders card featuring Chris Short and Jim Bunning (I honestly don't even remember the third guy -- I see the Phillies players and I drool). It was a PSA 10 1/1 card, and, as I was out of the country for the Holidays, I had a snipe in toward the auction end. As it turned out, I think the third bidder was in for $440 or so. My snipe was at a (ludicrous!!) $1,111. or so, and Revere won the card for $25 more than my snipe. It almost scares me to think what his top-all bid might have been.

Basilone

Looks like Revere struck again last night with his latest 1968 PSA10. Looks to be a seldom used username though...but when Novella and Lalos make up most of your feedback...well...you get the idea.

John

Stump

I know he has a tremendous amount of funds in this set. I figure the cost to upgrade is about 50 per grade now that I am going from 8-9. That takes into consideration of selling the 8. At 611 grades that would cost uopwards of 30,000.00 just to upgrade to his level. The 50 is probably low. To go from a mantle 8 to a nie is about a 1500 item and that is only 9 grades that alone is 166.00 per grade. I will continue to invest in this set as it is my core childhood set. I never got into it worrying about how much it was going to cost I just love to collect cards. That simple. I just didn't realize how powerful that set was.

Dave

Basilone

Stump-

Just keep this in mind. Yes, it will take alot to acquire the best 1968 set money can buy..but when/if you or whomever decides to sell....who will buy it? The POPs on these cards are only going to go up. Unless Revere has submitted a large amount of the cards from his personal raw collection...does anyone really think down the road he will break even...or even come close? Very unlikely.

How great can one make a 1968 set? Who would buy it in whole once you get there?

With the $30k that it would take to upgrade to Reveres' current level....there are thousands of cards and scores of other years that one could collect...in addition....to slowly upgrading your current 1968 set. Do you have any desire to tackle a new set ? Heck...$30k could of bought you Waynes 1965 set (which was #1 at the time).

Plus having a little diversity in the ol' portfolio cannot hurt either

John

toppsgun

As manias go, this hobby has all the earmarks of a classic:

- perceived short supply
- prices way above "book" value, complete with volatility and exponential curves upward
- limited "core" demand from a relative few deep-pocket collectors
- questionable appraisals of "value"
- perpetuation of the "scheme" via insider media outlets (message board)

It's already expensive enough to buy raw and wait for the next registry special. I can't imagine paying what Revere and Sky did for their sets. The big difference between the two: Revere appears to be holding and Sky sold low after buying high. Brilliant!

mikeschmidt

Perhaps Branca would be interested in a set like Revere's 1968?

For what it's worth -- I believe it is the only pre-1970 mainstream baseball set that is complete in a weighted-average of greater than PSA 9. Though there may be others out there of note (there are some killer 1961 Fleer Basketball sets in top grade, for instance, mainly originating from Fleer's release of wax boxes from their archives....)

Now -- if Revere were able to upgrade the rest of his 8s to 9s (which may take YEARS), then you have a truly timeless set for the ages. Unfortunately, I think that is a basically unrealistic goal unless some other uberfinds of other series of 1968 come to light.

ChrisKK

I think you are missing what some collectors are doing. not everyone is trying to turn a profit. if so, you are collecting the wrong things. some of us have decided on a year and we want the best possible cards we can get. we are not going to wait for the fifth occurrence of that card so we can get a 'deal' on it. we want the first one we see. think of it as that car you had in high school. you paid for it, bought new parts to make it faster, cooler and impressive. you didn't care how much you sunk into it and you knew you would never get out what you put into it. if you had the fastest or coolest car you were proud and others wowed over what you had. it also inspired others to try to better what you had. some collectors are doing the same thing with their collections.

if you are collecting for investment and profit, then that’s great. if you are collecting for self gratification, well that's great to. just remember that not everyone is collecting for the same reason.

Toppsgun - that bumper sticker is wrong, it should say: "He who dies happy, wins"

Chris

acowa

Chris,

I understand your point...

The main issue that I believe that you're missing is that you're talking about a pretty significant asset. Assets can either appreciate or depreciate. You may very well keep your cards your entire life...but at some point (maybe after you're gone) the cards will most likely be sold. You never really "own" the cards...you just hold them for awhile.

Since you're collecting for fun anyways...why do the cards have to be graded in the first place? Why pay 10-20X the cost of every card you buy just to have someone else say that the cards are authentic and unaltered. The reason that cards are graded in the first place is that cards are assets...if a card is trimmed...regardless if it looks and feels exactly like your PSA 9...it is worth less than the PSA 9 graded example.

Most people that I know cant tell the difference between a PSA 7, 8, and 9 anyways...so what's the point? They're not any more or les impressed UNTIL they see the cost of a 9 is phenomenal compared to their perceived value.

Anyways, collect for whatever reasons that you want...buy I think it's unwise to ignore the fact that the cards are assets.


Regards,


Alan

Basilone

Alan-

Great Points.....

Chris-

Im not saying to use your cards fund your retirement....but I do not think its a bad idea to at least break even. Baseball cards basically do nothing (unlike a car, boat, house, etc.)...as a collectible should they not at least appreciate? Yes there is the emotional attachment to your childhood but could that not be done with 7's and 8's rather than 9's and 10's? Heck...if one wants to relive their childhood....buy raw...thats what your cards back in the day and they had rounded corners and centering issues to boot!

Why am I collecting the wrong things if I wish to break even or make a few bucks several years down the road?

John

JH

I have to agree with Chris and Stump.

For me, collecting cards is a hobby. I don't expect to make money out of it. I don't expect to break even. If my cards hold some decent percentage of what I paid for them, great. If not, I still have the enjoyment of acquiring them and completing the set.

I don't see it any differently than my wife's hobby, which is photography. I seriously doubt that several years from now, anyone is going to be interested in buying her two dozen different cameras for anywhere near what she paid for them. But she enjoys what she does with them. That's enough for me.

This is the set I collected as a child. It brings back memories of childhood, and fulfills my needs for diversion from life's challenges. When I started my current set, my goal was to build the set in PSA 8 with a few 9's. I had an approximate total in mind for home much that set would cost. As I got further into the set, and I picked up a few 9's, my goal changed. My current hobby goal is to make my set the best that I can make it.

Do I pay ridiculous prices for some of my cards? Absolutely. Otherwise, I doubt I would have over 50 pop 1 PSA 9's. Will they be pop 1 forever? Some YES, some NO. I probably have another 25 9's that were Pop 1 when I bought them and are now Pop 2. I'm sure most people would be completely shocked to learn how much I have spent on my set. But if my wife and kids don't care, and I don't care, why should anyone else?

I only hope someday that I can be at the level of Revere's set, which I consider to be "legendary", but it's a long uphill road to get there.

Jim

ChrisKK

Alan – I agree that cards are an asset. But do I care if this asset goes up or down, not really, not this asset. I have to go back to the car analogy. Cars will NEVER appreciate. But there are some people who are willing to spend TONS of cash for rare cars. AND THEY NEVER DRIVE THEM. There are others who will replace parts in their existing car. Chrome, painted fiberglass, tv systems. Do they make the car run better? Will you break even or profit from the parts you add? NO. then why do you do it? I see it the same way with my cards. Do I need the 10’s, do I even need the 9’s. NO. I buy them because I want to have the best set possible.

When I buy a 10 over a 9 or a 9 over an 8 it’s because of quality. I do have raw sets, some are the original cards I pulled from rack packs and wax. But when I say that I have a MINT set, I want there to be no confusion of what mint is. That’s why I buy graded cards. If there are two cards a 9 and a 10 and they both look the same, I will buy the holder because I believe the card is worth it. I know that outside the collecting community no one can tell the difference from an 8 to a 10, but when I show someone my collection and they ask about the grade, they understand if the scale is from 1-10 and you have a 9 or 10 then you have something special.

John – if you want profits , cards are not the best avenue (IMO). More cards are being graded not less. For maximum profits I would think you would want to collect things that are becoming scarcer not more abundant.

Chris

Buckwheat

Hey Stump,

I know what you re talking about. In the '61 set, with the average PSA 9 going for $150 to $250, and taking 11 upgrades to raise the ranking by .01, it is very expensive to go from 8.00 to 9.00. Star cards are proportionally more per "set weighting point" than the commons. It is further complicated by the relative scarcity of PSA 9's and 10's avbailable, with only 66 cards graded PSA 10, and about 2400 PSA 9. And there are about 100 cards with a pop of 0 in PSA 9. I figure to get from 8.5 to 8.75 will cost about $40,000 to $50,000.

ToppsGunn, you make be absolutely right, but the answer is not yet in. It is not like they are making new cards, or another supplier can get into the market. The supply is fixed. What we don't know is how large the supply is. I thought I was overpaying when I paid $125 for a low pop PSA 9, with the SMR at $75 (up from $35 last year). Now low pops go for over $200 routinely. Next year will it be $100 or $300???

toppsgun

Buckwheat, I am right. And time will prove it. Although, even I don't believe the value will go to zero (like tulips and dot.coms).

I'm sure many who bought Qualcomm stock at $40, $80, $160, $320 and $640 thought the same as you did (i.e., overpaid). If they got out before it went down, they did OK-to-great. If they're still holding, they lost big time. Worse yet, what about owners of Enron, MCI, and others who will never recover their investment. At least Qualcomm has a chance to come back in time. But cards, I think are much different. When the bloom is off this rose (tulip), it's over for all practical purposes. You'll have to be an antique yourself (over 100 years old) to get back what you paid for them.

Basilone

Chris-

I not sure you understood what I said...I am not looking to make "maximum profit"...just to break even or make a few bucks far down the road. Once again...I do not look as cards as the end all be all investment vehicle...but I also do not see it as a vehicle to burn money either.

If one has all the money in the world and does not care what the future value of what his collection may become...fine...thats his business. Keep in mind though there are not that many of you out there. Most of us would like our collections to appreciate over time...thats WHY we buy high-grade vintage...not "average looking" raw.

Am I the only one that feels this way?

Also...the next time anyone sells a set...let not even talk about the auction results, the market for graded sets, etc. They (the sellers) apparantly do not care if they take a beating....why should we?

John

FB

John,

I agree wholeheartedly! If I didn't put some sense of value around what I was spending for my card collection, I could change my hobby to go-go bar hopping and still figure I'm doing alright. I can at least point out that I'm trying to be smart about my buying when my wife asks...

I don't believe in winning at any cost - because quite honestly, if I overspend on a card or cards that I know I can get for less with patience - even when I win a card, I've lost. I'm not looking to retire on the money I make on cards. I just don't want to take a bath, or at least minimize the size of the bath that I take. Heck - if I wanted to lose more money - I'd just buy more stock! But, these are choices that I want to make.

When the bidding on 1970 Topps got hot and heavy, the prices went beyond what I was willing to pay. So, I just turned my attentions to a different set and started submitting more to PSA myself. Will I ever regain the top spot on the 70 registry? - not likely. Will I eventually have a pretty nice 70 Topps set? - you bet! Will I be happy with that - heck yes!

Bottom line for me - everyone should do whatever they want when it comes to their own collections. Who's to say that we aren't all idiots?!?!

Kid4hof03

Let me first say that I have absolutely no business involving myself in this discussion, you guys are out of my league when it comes to the amazing sets that you have built and are building. I only have to offer a rebuttle bumper sticker to the one mentioned earlier and that is "he who dies with the most toys still dies".

When the pleasure of a collection comes on the sale side and not on the buy side then it is not really a hobby. We were inundated with the rookie card investors of the late 80's and early 90's, how are those guys doing now with their bricks of Tom Browning and Jose Felix rookie cards? We all collect for many different reasons, but I do think that the majority still collect and not invest. I for one don't have the income to not worry about the price of a card, but it's not for investment purpose, it's to make sure that my hobby doesn't take over my household.

My long winded 2 cents is this, we should all collect what we enjoy to the greatest degree we can enjoyably afford it. My Jamaal Wilkes PSA 9 player collection doesn't mean much to many people, but I smile every time I pull them out of my display case. That's really all that matters.

ChrisKK

I just get sore when I read posts about how someone is ‘over paying’ for cards. Only the buyer can really say if they are over paying or not. There are collectors who don’t mind spending more to ensure that they get what they want when they want it. that doesn’t make it wrong, we can all be right. We all just have to remember not everyone has the same goal even though we are on the same path.

Kid4hof03 – IMO your 2 cents are right on.

I have great interest in complete sets selling. There is some sticker shock, a set worth 600$ raw selling for 10,000$ graded, but I think as time continues people will realize that full sets can be sold as a whole and profitability. If it takes four years to complete a set one card at a time, a patient collector could save for three and have a good chance at a full set, ahead of schedule and under budget? You never know.

How long do you think it will take you to finish your primary set? If you had the opportunity to purchase your primary set all at once, would you? could you wait the years to save up enough to do so?

Chris

FB

Kid4hof03,

No matter what the set is - we all have a similar passion for them! You're one of us!

Oh, and if you're interested - I've got 800 Rick Aguilera rookies, 500 Ivan Calderon Rookies and another 300 Dan Pasqua Rookies not doing anything!!!

Kid4hof03

Frank,
Thanks for the kind words. I've been reading these board for months, but as you can see from my post number, I haven't jumped in very often. You guys have been the rare cross between great entertainment and genuine education, that's why I keep reading.

The Pasqua's are especially painful, only because I have my own supply. They sit nicely in a box flanked on either side by hundred of Mike Pagliarulo and Dennis Rasmussen rookie cards. I didn't both to buy very many 1984 Donruss rookies of that Mattingly kid, he just doesn't look like he'll be that good!

Stump

Frank---I will throw in my 1000 84 Kittles and we will call it a day.

Dave

Stump

Hey guys I just recieved a email from Ron about his 68 set. If you guys ever get a chance to converse with this individual you will find he is truely a collector and not in it for profit. This guy who has the finest vintage set out there is top notch and very much has a love of this hobby. He wants it known that his collection is for pure enjoyment and to sell for profit is not a priority. Here is a quote from him."Yes I have a ton in the set what he hell's the differance if I blow it at the casino or on baseball cards." He just loves looking at the cards and enjoys them, and for that I truely admire him for having the courage of his convictions. Here is a breakdown of the revere set which is to be updated soon.
149 PSA 10's (has these in nine also as back up)
435 PSA 9's
14 Psa 8's
This is a absolutly amazing accomplishment whether your a collector or an invester. Let it be known that whatever reason you collect, for investment or for the love or any combination of both or more reasons, I for one am just grateful that we have the opputunity to. I am sure he will be at the national and if you have time try to look him up he has alot of insight into this hobby and can be learned from. And no I am not on the Ron for president commitee.

Dave

gaspipe26

As a good friend of Ron's I never ever heard the word "sell" come out of his mouth when it came to his #1 set. What alot of people dont know is he also put a 51 Bowman set in 8 together in like 3 months!! He also has a stunning 41 Playball set in 8. He is a true collector.

acowa

<Yes I have a ton in the set what he hell's the differance (sic) if I blow it at the casino or on baseball cards.">

If I had a ton of money to blow...I guess it wouldn't matter to me either.


Regards,


Alan

toppsgun

I can think of a ton of worse things to spend it on. Boys, this is art. To each, his own and congratulations to us all.

ejguru

Great thread. I met Ron at Ft. Washington (Friday) in December. Chatted for about 30-40 minutes and was absolutely spellbound. What the cards mean to him (and to each of us) can't be priced. If I had the means, I can't say I'd be much different. Looking to A.C. to get more stories and "going to a casino"...


EJ

dude

The classiest guy in the hobby bar-none is Ron R. He is a "true collector" in the purest sense of those words. It was a treat meeting him at the Chicago National. Even beyond card collecting he has some amazing stories about his other interests. I'm tentatively planning on going to AC, and I plan to visit with Ron again in person. If you ever made a transaction with him, you know he's best guy there is to deal with.

This is a great thread. I'm somewhere in the middle regarding my collection. I have finite resources for buying, so I can't afford the first and the best of everything I need for my sets, but I also don't wait until the price of a card flattens out which can take years. I just pick and choose my purchases looking for quality and value with no intentions of selling but I like having the peace of mind that if I do have to sell, I'll come out OK.

I work with two guys that go deep sea fishing. They could go to the local market and buy the same fish for a fraction of their cost, but it's the fun of the catch that they enjoy so much. That's true with this hobby also. Also have friends that play golf three times a week (that's around $200 in fees alone). What's their return on investment?

zardoz51

"Blow it at a casino"???? I thought that I was investing at the tables !!!!!!!

thegemmintman

<< <i>Yes I have a ton in the set what he hell's the differance if I blow it at the casino or on baseball cards >>



Another quote worthy of a signature line. I love it!!

I always found casinos to be a source of supplemental income myself, but that's just me .

What more can be said, Revere loves his cards and that's what it's all about.

zardoz51

I always found casinos to be a source of supplemental income myself, but that's just me

Are you Donald Trump?????

thegemmintman

Let's just say I've held my own where casinos are concerned . Unfortunately everything I've made at casino land has been blown at the track .

zardoz51

and who didn't listen to me when I picked War Emblem????

Stump

Dude-- Great post you pegged Ron right on the button. Not a nicer guy to do biz with always helpful. I sure if it was a money thing with him he wouldn't be holding nines in back up for the tens he has.

Zardoz-- Tables are great investments its the dang dealer on the other side that messes everything up.

Gemmintman--Only bet on the horse when you are the horse.


To both of the Kellogg Guru's HELP!!!
I need six more in nine.

Dave

thegemmintman

<< <i>and who didn't listen to me when I picked War Emblem???? >>



and who got you interested in the Kentucky Derby last year so you could make that killing????


Stump - I'm working on your dilemma. Hopefully I'll have at least some good news soon.

Stump

Bill thanks I knew I could count on you. Me and Larry talked on the phone the other night for quite a while. The King fits for this guy. He has a vast amount of knowledge on the Kellogg's. I felt like a sponge with all the info he layed on me. He is top knotch but so are the rest of the K-Klub

Dave

thegemmintman

What you say is true about the KING. I really just live in Larry's K-kingdom where he allows me to farm a small parcel of land known as the '70 Kellogg's baseball set.


Sorry, we don't mean to detract from Revere's one for the ages '68 set.

Stump

By the way Ron also stated in his email he will be updating his set to a GPA of 9.23. The finest gets finer.

Dave