The disappearing MS66 '55-D Washingtons.

quattrocoins

I noticed that the on-line pops. (be it in the registry sets or the on-line report) now shows only 75 of these with none graded MS67. I just recieved the Jan. 2003 in the mail, and it lists 79 in MS66(I even seem to remember 80 on-line not too long ago). Curious, I checked a few other keys in this grade to find that most other pops. rose a bit in the same time span. Even the '39-S & '40-D gained 3 each in MS66. The '55-D was the only one that I saw that went down in population. Were these buy-backs by PCGS(MS65s pop went up only 2)? Were they crack-outs, lookin' for that extra 1/2 point (ie: NGC MS67s - I don't have NGC's #s)? Why would neither of the above reasons affect the other keys? Can any Washington guys-in-the-know wade in here with some thoughts?
At this rate, Im glad that I already have a nice one in my set!

Some key compares in MS66:

'42-S - 136 to 137, +1
'41-S - 129 to 131, +2
'40-D - 163 to 166, +3
'39-S - 145 to 148, +3
'53-D - 98 to 99, +1
'54-D - 102 to 104, +2
'55-D - 79 to 75, -4

I'm watchin' the '61-Ds also, which were unchanged @ 92.

Don

MS66 '55-D Washingtons, and

wondercoin

Don: My best guess is that the figures may have dropped due to regrades that graded the same, but took some time for the old serial numbers to come off the pop report. I know a few folks have been trying to make that first 55(d) quarter in PCGS-MS67, which would be a highly sought after coin.

A collector who visited me at the show had (2) MS66 1955(d) quarters he was selling. He mentioned to me that he sold one at $700 to another collector at the show, which shows (to me) the overall strength of the Wash quarter market. Wondercoin

coingame2000

quattrocoins,

I'm not really a Washington quarter guy (expert) by any stretch of the imagination but I did make a PCGS MS66 1955-D Washington quarter in December when I submitted a group of original double mint sets.

Best Regards,

Mike

quattrocoins

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Mitch, your's seems to have deferred any others, as your best guess probably hit the proverbial nail. The '55-D is the only one of the group (besides the '61-D) with none graded MS67.
That first one would be a "grandslam" in this market!
So, that puts the '61-D & '62-D in the same position - low MS66 pops. and no MS67s. Do you think that any of these later day keys'('53,4&5-Ds, '61&2-Ds) pops. will ever catch up with some of those earlier ones('39-S & '40-D)? Also, ones like the '42(105), '45(133), & '46(123)-Ps. Can any of these so called "common-dates" pops. catch up as well, given the unknown #s that were melted back in '79-'80?
The '61&'62-Ds have been @ 92 & 101, respectively, for a while w/no MS67s in site! One would think that mint sets and rolls are being searched as I type! Lots of time, there!!! LOL

Mike, your addition only makes the #s more perplexing.

Again, Thanks for the replies.

Regards,

Don

Whitewashqtr

Don

Good observation about Washington Pops. An increase in some of the dates you are referring to are most likely the result of the crackout game. The 39-S and 40-D pop reports are probably very inflated to begin with because of crack outs. You know how hard it is to find a 39S and the 40D in MS66. The 40D comes up a little more than the 39S which sold for stupid money in the Heritage Fun Auction. $1,800 for that coin is probably a record. AND I was told by a washington expert that NO WAY the coin will upgrade. Guess my 39S MS66 just went up in value again.

Some of the dates you mention are condition rarities. Their dates and mintmarks are commonly found in circulated condition. I believe some of the dates you mention (61D / 62D) are not submitted as much and therefore the pops are low. For example, the current online pop report reads total coins graded for the 39S and 40D are 842 and 991 respectively. Whereas the 61D and 62D are 397 and 456 respectively.

If the prices for the 61D and 62D increase significantly then I would assume raw examples (probably from mint sets) would then be submitted more regularly. The 39S and 40D are very hard to make in MS67, which is obvious. But the POPS are not true enough to go by for these dates. There are many crackouts trying to get that MS67 that account for the higher pops. I am sure that there are far fewer MS66's than what you see in the report. Just check the Registry sets and see how many people are missing the 39S and you could see my point clearer.

As for the 55D, most people know that the original mintage was something like 3.8M but that these coins dimished in supply because of the Silver melts in the 60's. The 55-D is harder to find than most other 40's dates. The pop probably dropped for the reason Mitch gave.

I think the 52D, 53D and 54D are sleepers and after the Washington market expands more (and it should) you will see these coins harder to find at today's prices.

WWQ

quattrocoins

WWQ:

Thanks for your reply and input.

I agree with you that the pops. for the earlier keys are inflated due to the crack-outs, lookin' for that elusive MS67. However, I would have to think that some of the later dates are in the same position. Don't you think that '55-Ds and '61&'62-Ds are being cracked out for the same reason? Wouldn't the first MS67 in any of these dates bring as much as an MS67 '39-s or '40-D? I have to believe that they are being hunted as much as the earlier ones. Look at the total pops for the '56, '57, & '58-Ps(they all went up significantly in the same time period). Why would so many be submitted when they are so common?
In the same time period, the total pop for the '61-d went up by eight - (3) 64s and (5) 65s. The total pop for the '62-D remained unchanged, and the total pop for the '55-D went down 2. I don't think that these pops are remaining so low for lack of persuit.

My Blast white '55-D, '61-D, & '62-D are lookin' better every day!

Don

washman

I was the one that paid the $700. for the 1955-d washington quarter. It was as white a 55-d as I had seen offered for sale and thought it was worth a premium. I may have paid a little to much, but they just don't come white. I also picked up a nice white 1942 pcgs ms66 washington for $78. a 1950 d/s ngc 63, (the ngc ms64 sold for $2050. in the auction) and one just sold on ebay for about the same money, a 1947-s ms67 pcgs blast white, and on Monday I pickup a 1943-s pcgs ms64 double die washington. I picked up a few other dates 54, 54-s, and 45-s but there were not many nice washington quarters available at the show.

quattrocoins

Thanks for your input, Bill.

You may have paid a little too much for the '55-D by yesterdays prices, but it's lookin' like a bargain more and more each day!
As for that '42-P, I think you made out like a bandit! Sounds like you did quite well, considering the lack of quality material available.

Don

wondercoin

"The 40D comes up a little more than the 39S which sold for stupid money in the Heritage Fun Auction. $1,800 for that coin is probably a record. AND I was told by a washington expert that NO WAY the coin will upgrade. Guess my 39S MS66 just went up in value again"

Yes, I set the record price for a 1939(s) in PCGS-MS66 and I'll post the new serial number of the PCGS-MS67 coin, if, and when it upgrades. When it does, it will likely be the nicest "color" 39(s) in a PCGS-MS67 holder and the $1800 price tag will look like pocket change. Hey - at least that is the plan

Wondercoin

wondercoin

"I was the one that paid the $700. for the 1955-d washington quarter. It was as white a 55-d as I had seen offered for sale and thought it was worth a premium"

Washman: You also bought the coin from one of the nicest Wash quarter collectors in the hobby today, Howard Houston Wondercoin

kaleidoscopic

I've made quite a few 64 and 65 55-D's. They don't like the 66. I've seen worse 66's out there, but I don't have what they seem to want for that grade.
Kscope

quattrocoins

Kscope:
I know exactly how you feel. At least you were able to make a few 65s.
When I first joined the club, I used the free gradings to slab four from a choice blast white roll I had. I expected 1 or 2 MS 66s. I got 3 MS64s and a MS63!
After looking at many others, I cracked out my best MS64(STILL thought it should '6) along with a MS65 that I thought had a chance of upgrading, and sent them in with some other dates. They both came back MS64!
Now a friend just told me of a dealer with another "PQ" 65. He recently had, what he thought was, a 67 in a 66 holder. So, he cracked it out and re-submitted it. It came back a '5!!!
So don't feel bad. You're not the only one who doesn't have what they seem to want for that grade!
At the rate they're disappearin', the pop could be below 70 by summer! LOL

Mitch:
I had[b/] a bid on that coin. I had no thought of it being an upgrade candidate so, consequently, bid no where near enough. It must look awesome in person. Good luck with quite the roll of the dice!
Mitch's new prize:



for more drool!

Don

washman

Quattro
I know a guy that claims to have 10 certs for the 1955-d in ms66. I don't know if he will send them in or not. I also talked to another crackout guy in New York that claims he has probably 3000 certs from some very rare low pop dates (not just washington quarters) that he may send in one day. I asked both why they would not want to send them in to make the low pop coins worth more money and they said that they know what the pops are because they have the old certs. I don't get the logic of this since if the pops were lower the coins they crack out and upgrade or that come back the same grade would be worth more money in some cases if the pops were lower. The only reason I could see to do this is if you want to buy rare dates with inflated pops at a lower price and then when you have purchased several coins you send in the old certs to lower the pop and then hopefully raise the price of the coin. IF you know the pop on a coin is lower you may have an advantage but only if the pop is corrected before you sell the coin. The buyers of coins are not going to pay an inflated price just because someone says that the pop is lower, because when he goes to sell the coin if the pop is not corrected the coin is not going to get the price that the coin deserves.

IrishMike

Very informative thread, us washington guys don't get much to read on here. I have a raw 39S I am going to submit. I admit I am not very good at grading washingtons, but I took the time to look at some 39S's at FUN and mine looks 65. I also dropped off one to NCS for conservation, the obverse is blast whit but the reverse is a dull gray. I purchased this one in a 66 ICG holder. I showed it to Mark Feld and he pointed out to me what appears to be a planchet flaw and die chips on the obverse. It was submitted to cross at anygrade to NCG. I am hoping for a 66, but not holding my breath. Anyway it is an interesting coin.

Once again thanks for the info.

wondercoin

"Good luck with quite the roll of the dice!"

Don: Thanks for posting the pic- it does show again the darkness of the typical Heritage scan, as the color on the coin is far more pretty than the scan suggests (if, and when, I get it in a PCGS-MS67 holder, I post a scan of the coin which I think more closely resembles the coin). By the way, there is nothing wrong with a company understating the beauty of coins in scans - that is much better than improperly enhancing them IMHO

Don, as you state - buying possible "upgrade" coins generally always involves a "roll of the dice". After all, three professional (presumably world class) PCGS graders, graded this particular coin MS66 one time around. But, as many here would likely agree with, a "specialist" in any field of numismatics, whether it be Wash quarters or fractional gold, probably has as good a skill grading that particular specialized series, if not better, as any random combination of (3) graders at a major grading company who see every coin, from "soup to nuts" all day long. Now "specialist" is, of course, undefined, as who knows what that term really means in this context. But, IMHO, the bottom line is, if you spend enough time studying a particular series of coins, you should be able to match or exceed the grading skills of the average professional grader working for a grading company who grades everything during the course of his/her day. Just my opinion on the subject and no offense intended to the grading companies' graders Wondercoin

Whitewashqtr

I agree with you Wondercoin. However, I was told by a "Washington specialist" who saw the coin in person that it, in his opinion, would not upgrade. As a matter of fact, he said "no way" would it upgrade.

I am sure, since you are there a lot that you will find a way to get it to a 67. If anyone can do it.. you can. I am interested to see a scan before it goes for upgrade. Unless, its in already.

I wish you all the best. That will be a major coin if it makes.

WWQ

wondercoin

WWQ: Who was the Wash Quarter "specialist" who said the coin had no chance to upgrade? There is no reason to hide his identity - after all, he may be proven right. I have certainly not hid behind my position on the coin or my embarrassing expenditure.

The coin was sent to PCGS already for grading - raw, of course. The MS66 holder means nothing in this. It's "MS67 or bust"

And, by the way - I do believe my chances to get this coin in an MS67 holder are as good as anyones. If the coin fails to make it this month, I will try the coin many more times, as the coin is an MS67 IMHO - and not just a "squeeker", but a solid MS67 which anyone would be proud to own in their 1939(s) slot. I will try it at major shows, special events, premium service at PCGS, economy service at PCGS and any other way I come up with BECAUSE THE COIN IS AN MS67 COIN. What I have going for me here is simply a great coin and one I will not give up on for a long time Wondercoin

Whitewashqtr

I am more curious to know who was bidding right there with you. Seems obvious that someone else thinks the same thing,

The "specialist" is unimportant. It was said to me before the auction. But what counts is that you think it will grade MS67. You were the one who mentioned it anyway.

But I think your plan is a good one. It's nice to know you are passionate about something you bought. And for good reason. If that coin does make, it would be great. And a spectacular find.

WWQ

wondercoin

WWQ: The underbidder on most of the colorful Mint State Wash quarter lots I won that night in the sale was Rick Tomaska, who was across the room from me. Yes, Rick Tomaska- who ran me to some rather high bids on several toned quarter lots I won that night. I was surprised to see him in this numismatic area, but our "secret" couldn't last forever could it

Wondercoin

quattrocoins

"He mentioned to me that he sold one at $700 to another collector at the show"

a PCGS MS66 recently traded hands at the FUN Show for $700

Word seems to have gotten around.

Don

MS66 '55-D Washingtons and

wondercoin

Don: I confirmed the information for Mike D. He ain't fibbing

Heck, the sale of the 1955(d) quarter in PCGS-MS66 was the talk of the FUN show. Wondercoin

Whitewashqtr

I think the sale of that coin is great!! It shows that people are starting to appreciate some dates other than the early ones. Try findng some of the 50's dates (any mintmark) white.. it's a challenge!!

WWQ

P.S. I dont agree that the coin on eBay should be listed as "lightly toned". I dont like that coin, although it will get some play because its hard to find. People seem to sacrifice eye appeal, the rarer the coin gets. Don.. I am sure your white one looks ten times better and probably worth the premium you'll get one day!!

wondercoin

WWQ: I have the 55(d) quarter in BLAST WHITE super PQ PCGS-MS66 in my set. I honestly wouldn't sell the coin today for $2500. As you point out, just wait until collectors discover just how rare certain dates are in blast white MS66. Wondercoin

Whitewashqtr

Mine is untoned original . but not "blast white" though. It is a nice coin, especially for the $100 I paid.. makes it more fun to own!!

Wondercoin.. do you have an entry in the Registry?

Cocoinut

I bought my '55-D in a Teletrade auction in April, 1997. It was either the first or second '55-D graded MS66 by PCGS. The first one showed up in the Population Report in late 1995 or early 1996, and by the time I got this one the pop was up to 2 coins in MS66. I've scanned a copy of the TT invoice; those of you who are faint of heart are advised not to look at it. Photos of the coin are also attached, but they are some of my early efforts with the digital camera from about 3 years ago, and not the best quality, but at least they will give an idea of what PCGS considered worthy of the grade at that time.

Jim

coingame2000

Cocoinut,

That's a really nice 1955-D Washington 25C and it sure is a rip compared to what it would cost you today. Moreover, it's a whole lot prettier than the one I made recently. Very cool coin...I like it a lot!

Mike

Colorfulcoins

A very nice 55D. Thanks for the pictures! Most 55D's I've seen are a bit .......homely - this one is certainly an exception!

quattrocoins

VERY nice coin, Jim!
I'd take that one over a boring blast white one anyday.
It looks "PQ" in your pics., and it is in an older green holder. Perhaps a candidate for the 1st "67"?

Again, super coin, and great invoice to boot!

Don

Sweetly toned '55-Ds and

leothelyon

Just curious here but are there any 55-D varieties? I have one here with 3 little raised "s" figures in the eagles left wing (eagle right) and some kind of die clash in same wing. Seeing this thread up for awhile, I had to have a look at my 55-D's....no MS66's but a couple of nice 65's.

Leo

Colorfulcoins

Here's another 55D in PCGS MS66. Irridescent blue, purple, rose, and gold with great luster - thanks Don Q!

washvarieties

As far as I know there is a 55d RPM #1 the 55d was sold at my table at the fun show a fair price for a nice coin and a table fee was given to me by the seller.

Don nice seeing you at San Jose

WANTED a 1943 (11-O-I) AU or better also looking to complete my 1939 Washington double dies I only need (DDO-010) (10-O-II) have the other 14 known

ZAPS COINS
Bob

wondercoin

"the 39S which sold for stupid money in the Heritage Fun Auction. $1,800 for that coin is probably a record. AND I was told by a washington expert that NO WAY the coin will upgrade. Guess my 39S MS66 just went up in value again."

WWQ: I just got the grading report that the coin upgraded to PCGS-MS67 on the first try. Wondercoin

Whitewashqtr

wow Mitch.. that's great!! I guess seeing the coin in person helps. What does something like that go for now? pop 7. Sweet!!

wondercoin

"wow Mitch.. that's great!! I guess seeing the coin in person helps. What does something like that go for now? pop 7. Sweet!! "

WWQ: I'll just place the coin in my collection for now. Wondercoin.

Aaron04

Congratulations Mitch !

Whitewashqtr

Wondercoin:

I wasnt asking if it was for sale. I was asking what you thought the coin was now worth. Do you have a registered set?

WWQ

wondercoin

WWQ: The one and only Registry set I have ever personally Registered at either PCGS or NGC was in PCGS' 1999 Registry "competition". I registered the #1 MS Silver Roosie dime set. I did register (22) Registry sets on behalf of collectors thereafter in the early stages of the Registry (I think these made it into the 2000 Registry booklet), before there was this website chatroom, etc. Many of those sets were registered as PW.1, PW.2 etc. (refering to my pcgswholesale.com website - set #1, #2, etc).

Over the past couple years, I have assisted a couple collectors in particular with building outstanding MS Wash silver quarters collections (including current (and ALL-TIME) Registered #1). Into these collections have gone many pop 1 and lower pop coins which I have handled. I hope to place addition wonderful coins in the months and years ahead.

I also still have many, many wonderful silver Wash quarters remaining, however I have no plans to register a set of them at this time. A few of my personal favorite PCGS Wash quarters I currently own are my: (1) 1932(p) in MS67 (pop 1) (ex Benbow, Green, Registrycoin); (2) 1935(s) in MS67 (this was the technically nicest blast white MS67 in the incredible Richard Green collection and I believe his personal favorite coin in the set - which makes it sort of special to me). Check out R. Green's current MS Kennedy collection to get a flavor for the type of collections he builds); (3) 1935(d) in blast white MS67 (ex: White, Registrycoin) - I have never seen another BLAST WHITE MS67; (4) 1936(d) in MS67 (this was probably John Benbow's favorite coin, which he tried to upgrade to MS68 on an occasion of two - BLAST WHITE, again, which makes it sort of special to me); (5) 1937(s) - blast white MS67. I have all (3) blast white MS67's ever graded by PCGS - one from Registrycoin's set (ex White), one from Benbow and one from the Green collection. OK, well 5 of my special coins got me all the way up to 1937! You get the idea - I sort of like silver Wash quarters, especially the specially colorful ones which "kick in" around 1943 Wondercoin.

Whitewashqtr

Talk about 1939-S's. I just picked up one on eBay. I think I got a deal on it too!! This coin is worth much more than the price guide suggests.. And the pop is lower than the report refects.. But, we have been through that. This looks like a nice coin.

Link

rwhite

Oh Mitch! You bring up my 37-s??? You know I still long to hold that coin again! Maybe I'll need to arrange a visit.

wondercoin

"Oh Mitch! You bring up my 37-s??? You know I still long to hold that coin again! Maybe I'll need to arrange a visit. "

Ryan: Anytime!! You always said when you "strike it rich" you may just buy the entire collection. I have always taken that seriously

How's school treating you?


Wondercoin

PS: Ryan - you are just like me - even though we both love wonderfully toned Wash quarters, we can appreciate the true beauty and rarity of a fresh, original blast white early date jewel as well (you haven't once asked to visit your favorite toned coin from the set - the 1944(p)!

rwhite

Well Mitch, I miss the entire set (not to say I regret selling it, though). I'll stop by soon.