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Recent auctions and a question of ethics / trust.

Getting everyone feedback on recent auction results has been great. I too feel many of the prices some pieces are fetching are nutso. But I also noticed many BM lots went unsold!!

QUESTION: Given the fact many dealers act as "agents" for buyers (collectors,investors) does the dealer have a responsibility to talk down the buyer from making stupid mistakes? Like buying a Sac$ for $7k? Or does the dealer simply give a weak - it's not a good idea - then go do the buy? If that's the case the dealer is simply acting as an order taker and have zero added value, how and why trust / do business with someone like that?

Comments

  • Does the buyer have an obligation to ask the dealer for their opinion? I've found from experience that volunteering an opinion when it's not requested is the best way to tell a customer to do business elsewhere.
    redhott
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Obligation to "talk down" the buyer? No, he has no obligation to do so. Obligation to be completely truthful, and provide all relevant facts in a hype-free manner? Yes.

    Edit: Just realized I misread your post. If the dealer is acting as an agent for the buyer, than yes, he does have an obligation to offer his opinion if he believes the buyer is being stupid. He is supposedly the expert, and if he offers his services as agent than he should provide that expertise.

    Originally thought you'd said he was acting as agent for the seller. That's a different situation and my first paragraph would apply in that instance.

    Russ, NCNE

  • truthtellertruthteller Posts: 1,240 ✭✭
    If a dealer is the agent for the purchase of a coin through auction, the agent does not have the obligation to question any bid the authorizing party places. In fact, the agent could be responsible for any loss of potential profit due to negligence buy offering an opinion which is contrary to the motives of the buyer. For example, I post a bid of $1000 with a dealer as an agent to buy at auction, generally at a 3-5% commision. The dealer talks me out of bidding $1000, only to bid $500 when his opinion was not asked nor wanted. The bidder and winner out bids me at $501, only to sell the coin again for $5000. I now have a action against the agent for negligence, since his opinion was incorrect, unsolicited, and was a financial loss of potential profit to me. An agent has certain ethical guidelines to have a nonconflict of interest. In addition, the agent is responsible for executing bids, nothing more, nothing less. That what an agent does. A retained agent is different, whereby his knowledge and responsibility is a far higher standard, and he gets paid more, usually 10% of the gross sale or purchase.

    TRUTH
  • PlacidPlacid Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭
    How can you tell when a coin dealer is lying?
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    Placid,

    That one is too easy.

    Russ, NCNE
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    Just because a dealer is a professional numistmatist, does not mean their opinions are always going to better than their clients.

    If I talked someone out of spending 10K on a coin that sold for 15-20K in another year, I would feel folish (even if I still thought I was right and the new price is even worse).
  • In being an agent for either the buyer or seller, a fuduciary relationship is formed and a written agreement between all parties involved detailing the responsibilities and compensation of each party is the prudent course of action to take. Too many agency disputes have ended up in court and the judicial system frowns upon any one acting as an agent and not knowing or realizing his or her responsibilities.
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
    I guess it really depends on why the collector contracted with the dealer to be his agent.

    If I, as a newbie with limited knowledge and assuming I had lots of money to spend, were to contract with a dealer I would do so with the explicit expectation that he provide his advice. Otherwise, I would see no reason to use the dealer's services.

    OTOH, if it is a sophisticated collector very familiar with their series utilizing the services of the dealer because said collector cannot or does not want to be in attendance at the auction, than I could see some liability on the dealer's part if unsolicited and bad advice is offered and heeded.

    Russ, NCNE
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    Legally, an agent represents someone as if that person was there. Contracturally, it is the responsibility of the agent and person to determine how to procede. Because an agent represents a person, the agent cannot bid independently of the wishes of the person who hired them. However, if after a conversation both agree on a course of action and it is not successful there is no liability on the agent's part.
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    BTW, there are three types of arrangements:

    1. Servants (aka slaves, employees, etc)
    2. Agents (contractor who represents employer)
    3. Independent Contractor (consultant)

    Each has different responsibilities, different risks, and different exposure to lawsuits.

    For a servant, the employer liable for negligent acts in performance of duties. For an agent, an employer is liable for acts binding him. And an employer is not liable for the actions of a contractor.
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500
    Does that mean all dealers have a fudiciary responsibility (whatever that lawyerspeak means) to stop selling coins when they feel the bull market is overvalued? and it will crash sometime in the future?

    And if I bought a $10K coin in late 70's that is worth $4k now, I should sue the agent who helped me acquire it?

    If an agent talks a potential client/buyer out of a purchase does that mean they can ghet sued if the item goes up in value?
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How can you tell when a coin dealer is lying?

    When his nose grows longer? lol..... which means he's got his nose in your face.
    Is one way to look at it.

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    Well, let's start by looking at what fiduciary means:

    1. Of or relating to a holding of something in trust for another
    2. Of or being a trustee or trusteeship
    3. Held in trust
    4. Of or consisting of fiat money

    So as long as the agent who has fiduciary responsibility is responsible and due diligent, they are not liable. And after the dissolved relationship, decisions that were responsible at the time they were made are not actionable.

    However, the statute of limitations applies to actionable issues starting from when they were discovered. So if a collector finds today (1/9/2003) that a dealer who had fiduciary responsibility knowingly acquired a counterfeit coin 20 years ago and misrepresented it to their employer (the collector), the statute of limitation clock would begin today to take action.

    Neil
  • ZerbeZerbe Posts: 587 ✭✭


    << <i>How can you tell when a coin dealer is lying? >>

    Call Benchmark Ventures. Oh, I thought you asked, "Where a coin dealer is lying" ?
  • Wow, this really got off on a tangent!

    First of all, there is no contract, fiduciary relationship, etc. Many dealers act as "agents" [i.e. lookouts] for collectors.

    Some of the legal mumbo jumbo expressed here is rather humorous and I guess that's how people get the wrong idea about what is actionable in court and what is not.

    Anyway, here is the circumstance. Many moons ago I wanted to buy a rare gold coin. The dealer said bad idea, it was over priced but I did like ever so much. For some odd reason I waited and got over that nice proof liberty eagle. He instead talked me into buying 3 classics flowing $, half, 25c. Needless to say I did very well and he knew his stuff.

    I wonder how many dealers have the balls to say no vs. yes to make the sale. I find too many of us seek confirmation of bad ideas vs. the truth. When a dealer agree with everything I say I know I have the wrong guy.
  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,459 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder how many dealers have the balls to say no vs. yes to make the sale.

    That dealer read you as a serious, well informed collector and buyer and repeat custumer.
    Or that coin was from his personal collection and was just a show piece or the coin could have been already spoken for by a regular buyer. But if the coin had some problems then he'll eventually unload it.
    But then again, it may have been overpriced but what does that mean, did the dealer pay too much for it?

    Leo

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭
    His lips move
  • How can you tell when a coin dealer is lying?
    Same as lawyers, their lips move.image
    History always repeats itself. Humans are slow learners.

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