TALLBOY AUCTION QUESTION.....MIFFED!!!

PROMETHIUS88

not sure if anyone else has been watching the small smattering of low pop 69-70 and 70-71 topps basketball cards on ebay lately?!?! the problem i'm having is the fact that they are being listed then the auctions are being ended within a day of the listing. i can understand if someone wants to test the market and ends the auction a little bit early, but within one day?? i got SO excited when i saw the 70/71 john block psa 9 go on last night, but when i come home from work tonight and i find my bid had been cancelled already and the auction had ended...i was upset!! even if someone is offering a ridiculous amount of money to end the auction, who says it might not go higher if left on?? i didn't really expect to win that one...(i'd have to get a second mortgage!), but it would have been nice to watch it! anyhow, i just needed to vent my frustrations on this issue and wonder if anyone else is having the same problems?? tim

qualitycards

TIM - Try Emailing the seller w/ those thoughts and perhaps he can give you a valid reason for the cancellations...jay

koby

What would be the point of that? Promethius has stated that he wanted the auction to run its course only but did not realisticly think he would win it. Is the seller going to turn down legitimate offers for the sake of Promethius' curiosity?

PROMETHIUS88

koby, i didn't say i wouldn't make a "realistic" bid. i had only bid once to $115 but was prepared to go to $500.00. i think that is a "legit" offer, but one that probably wouldn't have been high enough to win the card! besides, it wasn't' just for my "curiosity", but it is a way to help "define" the market price of a card. now, what can i expect to have to pay for the card....who knows..it didn't get that far. i also know there are plenty of other guys who collect that set that would have been interested in the final price as well. tim

waitilltheytrytosell

Sellers who end the auctions to sell to the cowards who offer a great price are stupid. The people contacting them are afraid they will lose the card in a competitive auction. The only way they can win is too cheat. Contact the seller, hope he's stupid and take what seems like a great offer. What other buyers need to do is contact the seller and ask why they ended the auction. Tell them you saw the card and planned to bid a huge amount of money for it. Tell him an amount range over what you think is the highest he could have possibly sold it for, and tell him that it could even go higher if the right people see it. Suggest to him that he should relist the item and let it run it's course. Hopefully his buyer will have already sent the payment, and the seller will jerk the buyer around and reneg on the deal. The buyer and seller both get what they deserve for jerking people who play by the rules around.

qualitycards

WAITTIL - Is 100% right, by contacting the seller, he is aware that whatever he sold it for....was probably too cheap. Plus as PROMETHIUS88 pointed out, it would also be nice to get the handle of its market value. KOBY sorry if my post to contact the seller bothered you...jay

JH

PROMETHIUS88 has every right to be upset by this... I have had this happen to me several times...When I search for a card to buy, review the scans of that card, research the population, and determine a price I am willing to pay, I am investing my time in the card. When that card is then pulled out of the auction, all of that effort is wasted. If this happens to me more than once, from the same seller, I will just ignore their auctions, boycotting them. I value my time and I'm not going to waste it on a seller that doesn't follwo thru on their auctions.

I had an 10 day auction I had placed a "marking" bid on a few months back... this was from a seller I had done business with several times in the past... this was a pop 1 PSA 9 League Leader card for my set...with just 1 day to go, the auction disappeared... I e-mailed the seller and expressed my disappoint at the auction ending early....he replied that he had "second thoughts" about the level as which he had placed the "reserve".. that he was afraid it wasn't high enough...He said he was talking with some other sellers to try and determine what the reserve price should be.... He has still not re-listed the card.

In the mean-time, another copy of the card was graded PSA 9, so it is now a pop 2. I bought that card for about 2xSMR, which is less than I would have been willing to pay for the original card....so it's his loss...

I have been asked several times in the past to end an auction for a price... in each instance, I have refused, and ended up selling the item for more than the offer....

Ending auctions prematurely is just bad business, it alienates your customers and it costs you money....

crazysc

You know what always blows my mind? When someone e-mails, and says "hey, I'm high bidder at $100 right now, if you close the auction I'll paypal you $100 right away." Are people really that desperate that they can't continue an auction, with ZERO downside potential? That's one I've never understood.

mcdee2

This may sound stupid to some of you guys.. I have had the same thing happen to me on numerous occasions and my reaction is on par with the majority here.. I have never ended an auction early so I do not know if the seller is responsible for the fees associated with a finalized auction or if they just have to pay the initial listing fees? Obviously, on a big ticket item if they could cancel the auction and sell to a private party this may in fact save them some of the fees associated with the percentage of final price realized.

Tipem

I won't be as easy on this topic as most of you guys.THIS REALLY GRIPES MY --- !!! I have not sold much on E-Bay lately but I also have never ended an auction early.I have however, had a disproportionally large number of auctions end early and I have e-mailed sellers only to find that the card or cards have already been sold.I think that E-Bay should assess a 20%-25% fee of the ending price as a deterrent to preemptive actions of the seller and his buyer.I listed a card wrong once and had to cancel an auction and there was no sellers fee assessed to my account. Unless things have changed,E-Bay must be losing a ton of money on these cancelled auctions,probably in the millions of dollars over the course of a year.I wonder if they have even ever done a study on it.
Maybe we,as disgruntled E-Bay participants, should e-mail them with our opinions on this topic.I am sure that the majority of people that sell on E-Bay would agree with this policy.I think that only a small percentage of people are ending auctions early and a much larger percentage of people are troubled by this practice.I think that we(set registry participants),should probably try to use our combined efforts to correct the problems that we all seem to agree with on these boards.Sounds kind of political(no,I am not a politician or an activist), but it is amazing what you can accomplish sometimes with a little peer pressure.After all,E-Bay is a pubically traded company and when you talk money or the potential loss of it,people usually listen.

Just a thought,

Vic

Tipem

The next to the last line on my post should have E-Bay as a publicly traded company and not as what I typed.


Call me a typing reject.Two fingers at a time!!!

Vic

acowa

Vic,

<Maybe we,as disgruntled E-Bay participants, should e-mail them with our opinions on this topic>

You would have better luck in simply emailing the sellers of cards that you're interested in to see if there is a price at which they would stop the auction. Nomatter how they respond, you win.

I realize that you should not HAVE to do this...but lobbying EBAY is like talking to a wall. The thing that EBAY has going for it is that you can find almost anything imaginable there...thus EBAY is going to take care of its "Power Sellers" first and foremost.


Regards,


Alan

acowa

<Sellers who end the auctions to sell to the cowards who offer a great price are stupid. The people contacting them are afraid they will lose the card in a competitive auction. The only way they can win is too cheat. Contact the seller, hope he's stupid and take what seems like a great offer.>

Waitil,

I don't necessarily agree that they are stupid....it really depends on the item and the offer. Ebay and auction prices in general fluctuate too much to make that generalization.


Regards,


Alan

waitilltheytrytosell

acowa - Stupid was the nicest word I was able to post.

Most auctions that are cancelled are done so to find a buyer on line, and then sell the item off line and avoid the Ebay fees. Excuses like it's no longer for sale, or a mistake was made in listing are nonsense. Mistakes can occur, so just correct it and relist it then. There should be a heavy fee for never relisting it though. You changed your mind! - Maybe first you should consider the fee of 30% of the starting price or the highest price the item reached, whichever is higher. It would be fully refundable if you later relisted it.

PROMETHIUS88

well, i'm glad i'm not the only one who feels this way. i haven't contacted the sellers of the auctions that were pulled yet, but i will. it was just who i guessed, though, the psa 9 block just showed up in the j. feeley collection. not sure if he opened that set up on purpose or not, but it is now visible for all to see. it hasn't been opened as long as i've been watching, so it might have been an accident! i respect the set he's put together as a fellow collector and and happy to see what he has. but, now i know the 3 cards he's missing and i'll do what i have to to get those cards first!! but, i'll play fair!! tim

Tipem

Tim,

To heck with playing fair!! I would use the old addage:"What goes around,comes around".Or maybe it is that new addage"All's fair in love and baseball card collecting".I am sure that one of them applies.Anyway,good luck with your set.

Vic

koby

<< <i>Most auctions that are cancelled are done so to find a buyer on line, and then sell the item off line and avoid the Ebay fees. >>



I don't think this is the reason. The fees on ebay are so small. Compared to traditional auction houses, seller fees on ebay are negligible.

The same thing happened to me on numerous occasions and I was very upset that I did not have the opportunity to compete for the card. So I do know where most of you are coming from.

On the other hand, I could see where the seller and the buyer's motivation. For low population cards such as this one, the buyer probably did not want another guy emailing the seller to end the auction prematurely before he does. The seller most likely received an out-of-this-world offer and far more than he had projected.

Not the most ethical and not the fairest strategy on either person's part, but they both got what they needed.

koby

<< <i>"What goes around,comes around".Or maybe it is that new addage"All's fair in love and baseball card collecting". >>



Both of these cliches apply here. I'm sure you don't want to stoop to that level, but if you do not do the same, the same thing could happen next time.

Buckwheat

Three similar hypothetical scenarios

1)I own a sportscard store, and have had a card in my shop with a price of $500 for a year with no action. I post it on ebay to hopefully get $300 for it. Someone comes into my store, and sees the card and wants to buy it for the full $500. If I tell them to bid on Ebay, I may only get $305 for it from the same person. Is it wrong to now pull the auction and sell it to that person for $500?

2)I am an Ebay seller. I have some very regular customers whom I sell to both on and off Ebay. I post a card that one of them wants that I didn't realize they needed. They place the high bid the first day, and email me to ask if I will sell them the card for more than I expected to get for it. This is well within Ebay rules. They are a loyal customer. Is it wrong to pull it or close the auction early and sell it to them at their offered price?

3) I am a dealer at a card show with a card listed at $1000. You want the card, but only want to spend $800. You decide to wait until the last day, and see if I will sell it to you for that. Meanwhile, someone else looks at the card, and I offer to sell it to them for $750, which they accept. You feel cheated, because you would have spent $800 for it, but I didn't tell you that. Is it wrong for me to sell the card to someone below my asking price?

Buckwheat

<< <i> but, now i know the 3 cards he's missing and i'll do what i have to to get those cards first!! but, i'll play fair!! tim >>



Tim,

This is why people have to hide their sets. Others always want to make them pay more for cards they know the collector needs.

Buck

Buckwheat

One of the reasons this happens so often, I believe, is because of the way Ebay uses Buy It Now. Since they eliminate the buy it now with any bid on a no reserve auction, you have to either put a high starting price or a high reserve to use it effectively. That then significantly increases your listing fee, and ticks a lot of buyers off who don't like reserve auctions. Why can't they leave the buy it now option open until that price is met, or let the seller set the price where the BIN drops?

I have bought cards by having the seller close the auction. I would estimate that most times, I pay more than I would if the auction continued to the end. The flip side is that 100% of the time, I got the card.

Alfiewt

Tim,

It looks like he opened the set on purpose, he posted scans for almost all of the cards! It's a very nice set!

BTW, It looks like you are doing a very good job on your set, and you have an amazing 1969-70 set.

PROMETHIUS88

buckwheat-according to the ebay rules, they don't "allow" you to pull an auction and sell the item to someone you found online unless you inform ebay that you sold the item this way and give them a percentage. i understand it is impossible to monitor and it does save the seller a lot of money...can't blame them for that! i guess mine is more of an "emotional" reaction than anything else. my heart is just broken that i didn't get the chance at it. i believe it is a different situation if you have a card in your store at $500 and while listed on ebay a walk-in customer offers retail price on the card. the cost of doing business is incurred in local advertising, storefront, etc. but, your "advertisment" on ebay isn't paid for when you pull the auction and sell it to someone you would have only reached by using ebay. in some ways, i feel it is really just stealing from ebay. it would be like offering someone who walks into your shop a finders fee but when he finds that "buyer" for you, you go behind his back and sell to the person without giving up the finders fee!

alf- yeah, he might have done it on purpose, but as you can see, he added the block psa 9 but doesn't have the pic b/c he hasn't received the card yet. thanks for the comps on my sets, but at just 12% on the 70-71 set, i've still got a long row to hoe!! the 69-70 set is pretty weak as i've been spending most of my time trying to obtain the 70-71's and my 86 fleer psa 9's. one day, though!!!

btw, i've dealt with jim on both sides in the past and he's a good guy with an incredible colletion(check out his 69-70 topps bk)! maybe i can guilt him into parting with some of his goodies some day!?!?

qmayer

<< <i>One of the reasons this happens so often, I believe, is because of the way Ebay uses Buy It Now. Since they eliminate the buy it now with any bid on a no reserve auction, you have to either put a high starting price or a high reserve to use it effectively. That then significantly increases your listing fee, and ticks a lot of buyers off who don't like reserve auctions. Why can't they leave the buy it now option open until that price is met, or let the seller set the price where the BIN drops? >>



Buckwheat-

If they did it the way you say (or the way I understand it), the buyer could simply hit the "buy it now" when the bidding reached that level. It would eliminate any chance of auctions going any higher than the BIN. In the same situation, the same thing could be achieved by putting it as a fixed price item.

Justin

Buckwheat

Justin,

You are right that it would limit your upside. But the point of a buy it now is taht the seller is happy with the price. The difference from fixed price, is that the auction would actually be more like "fixed price or highest offer."

Davalillo

There are certain dealers that I do a substantial amount of business with that if I see something they put on ebay that I really want, I will ask them to take it off and to sell it to me. I do not recall anyone ever saying no. I benefit as I get the cards I want/need at a fair price and the dealer benefits as he gets a substantial amount of recurring business from me as I tend to remember things like this. I was not aware that this is illegal and I do not consider it unethical.

Davalillo

Mantlefan

My experience, even with dealers I have done high dollar deals with, is that they will not end auctions early. I don't blame them, since some auctions bring in ridiculous prices. Of course my definition of "high dollar" is $500 - $1000.

Vargha

I have offered to buy from sellers on eBay if they would end the auction early. I have had people agree to sell and some who let the auction run its course. I have also won some auctions for less than what I offered to end it early for.

ydsotter

One thing here is that some of us exist or move in similar circles and hunt for the same things. If I want to stay on friendly terms with my small clique of vintage basketball card buyers/bidders... I feel somewhat obligated to consider them before I yank something that I am selling... but there seems to be no remorse among any of us when any one of us convinces a seller to let something go early...
another cliche "you snooze, you lose"

On the other hand... guys from my ebay BK clique will drop me a line and ask me to sell them something before the auction ends... even when I don't really want to... I feel somewhat obligated to because in many cases... it was their kindness and grace that allowed me to acquire my prized possessions...

I frequently contact sellers and make them aware that they are selling a card that I really want and to please consider me before ending the auction for someone else. Rarely, they offer it to me right then and there...

In any case, this seems to reduce the unpleasant surprises of auctions being plucked away from me on eBay.
As as seller, I always entertain an offer... rarely does an offer exceed my wildest dreams... but if it did... I would lwant to sell it...
because...

Many of us do not have card shops or business. We just occassionally sell cards that we've lost interest in... or in some cases hope to make a measley $10-$20 profit off of a smart buy... either we don't have a seller's reputation to protect or... we are so titliated by the extra $50 that we don't care...

In the end... ethics seem to mean little on eBay... in the end... it's your reputation and the extent you are allowed to participate in brotherhood of the vintage basketball card clique... or the brotherhood of the 1967 topps set clique etc... that really matters... I'd rather have 10 negative feedbacks than to be labeled a scumbag from the ebayers that matter most to me and my set building...

one sidenote about being a sneaky $#% on eBay... in an fairly ethical way...
I actually paid my rent and for my groceries through graduate school by sniping smart buys at 2 and 3am or buying from high risk sellers... with (0) feedback that only accepted cash and mo's...
I'd buy great cards really cheap...
Then I'd relist them with pictues, colors and informative and pro-active descriptions... with fancy colored font... (people love fancy colored font???) I would set the opening bid at what I paid for the card and hang it out there...
If I resold 30 cards with a $10-$15 average profit, then I made $300-$400+ a month after ebay fees...
This mean't that I didn't have to flip burgers or reshelve books...
I only wish I had the kind of cash that some of you guys have at your disposal...

Tipem

I have done some checking into e-Bays policy and here it is.Go to e- Bay Rules and Safety page,then User agreement Q&A page,then Investigations page.On that page ,go to Buying Offenses.Under buying offenses,I Quote:


Displinary action may result in the indefinite suspension of a users account,temporary suspension,or a formal warning.e-Bay will consider the circumstances of an alledged offense and user's trading records before taking action.

Reading further, under the heading FEE AVOIDANCE

Cancelling a listing to sell the item to anyone who contacted the seller through e-Bay,or became aware of the item through e-BAY


Although this policy is violated everyday(I'm sure),here it is in black and white.As a seller, you must put yourself in e-Bay's shoes.Although e-Bay's lack of professionalism with some of their policies is blatantly evident,they are expecting,and deserving of a listing fee and a sellers fee if they are responsible for an item being sold,regardless of whether it was actually sold through them or not.Although you may or may not like e-Bay,everyone must admit that they have been really good for our hobby and the direct cause of all of us being able to have access to many nicer, more affordable cards. I am not a proponent of e-Bay necessarily,just a non believer in ending auctions early.

While violating this policy is not illegal in any lawful sense of the word,it is in violation of e-Bay's policies.As far as unethical goes,each person has to be their own keeper.I certainly would not be one to cast stones or pass judgement.Until e-Bay decides to address this situation,it will continue.

Lastly,I have in no way intended to offend anyone,and if I have done so,Please accept my apologies.

Vic Garvin