nitpicky points about ngc's latest ad - still misleading!

dorkkarl

just got my coin-world, 1/6/2003, it has a ngc advertisement in the middle of it. their reference to their grading guarantee states:

1. "NGC stands behind the grade ... of every NGC graded coin".

once again, no mention is made that the guarantee does not apply to undergrading of coins, & therefore they stand behind their grade only 50%. instead, they impliy that they stand behind the grade 100%. this misleading statement seems prevalent in propaganda by the various grading co's. there is the hidden assumption that you, as a coin collector, cannot lose $ if your coins are certified at too low a grade. still my absolute #1 greatest complaint against all plastic-dom. why don't any of them tell the truth?



another statement that bothers me (only to a small extent since i don't give a lick about "registries" anyhow)

2. "The Certified Coin Registry is the most accurate..."

accurate in what regard? there is no explanation whatsoever of any facts behind this statement. is it most accurate technically (ie. error-free) or grading wise? seems like an empty statement, w/out something to back it up.



3. "NGC's principles require that there are no conflicts of interest on any level... NGC graders are prohibited from buying or selling coins"

how does that guarantee no conflict of interest? do they mean a grader can't possibly be in cahoots with someone else who does buy & sell coins?



i personally do believe ngc has a good chance of choking pcgs out of the market. but they had an opportunity to tell the truth with point #1, and failed miserably. that bothers me.

gee, even after reading their ad, i couldn't be happier w/ my 100% unslabed collection.

K S

tradedollarnut

1. "NGC stands behind the grade ... of every NGC graded coin".

once again, no mention is made that the guarantee does not apply to undergrading of coins, & therefore they stand behind their grade only 50%. instead, they impliy that they stand behind the grade 100%. this misleading statement seems prevalent in propaganda by the various grading co's. there is the hidden assumption that you, as a coin collector, cannot lose $ if your coins are certified at too low a grade. still my absolute #1 greatest complaint against all plastic-dom. why don't any of them tell the truth?

Since when are people on this board concerned about NGC undergrading coins?



another statement that bothers me (only to a small extent since i don't give a lick about "registries" anyhow)

2. "The Certified Coin Registry is the most accurate..."

accurate in what regard? there is no explanation whatsoever of any facts behind this statement. is it most accurate technically (ie. error-free) or grading wise? seems like an empty statement, w/out something to back it up.

Well, it is a lot more accurate than the simple weighting system here - except it doesn't give points for many early proof coins or lower grade coins

Russ

<< <i>1. "NGC stands behind the grade ... of every NGC graded coin". >>



Grading guarantees were never meant to protect the seller. They are clearly meant to protect the buyer, and have been from the beginning. Your pounding the drum on a non-issue.



<< <i>2. "The Certified Coin Registry is the most accurate..." >>



They could be referring to the fact that they accept both NGC and PCGS slabbed material. On that basis, they have the potential to come closer to most accurately reflecting the truly best collections. Since PCGS doesn't allow NGC coins, and it's well known that there are some top coins in NGC holders, NGC is a step ahead in that regard.



<< <i>3. "NGC's principles require that there are no conflicts of interest on any level... NGC graders are prohibited from buying or selling coins" >>



Arguing that there are ways around this, (which, of course there are), is like worrying that your bank teller is going to embezzle your paycheck. It's much ado about nothing.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl

<< <i>Since when are people on this board concerned about NGC undergrading coins? >>

if you sell a coin that was undergraded by ngc, you are selling the coin for less than it's true value, & therefore are not making the profit you deserve to on the coin. despite russ's comments, it IS an issue, 1 that is conveniently glossed by grading co's. i fear that it is conveneiently viewed as a non-issue because it would require grading co's to guarantee a grade 100% in actuality, rather than only implying that they do so, which would be a far more difficult (though far more valuable to collectors) issue to address.



<< <i><< 1. "NGC stands behind the grade ... of every NGC graded coin". >>

Grading guarantees were never meant to protect the seller. They are clearly meant to protect the buyer, and have been from the beginning. Your pounding the drum on a non-issue. >>

so the needs of sellers are to be ignored? where are the statements that "clearly" demonstrated your assertion? i have re-read the NGC ad & i do not get that sense at all. again, it is not a "non-issue", because i seriously doubt you can name any company that has only ever bought certfied coins, & never sell any, & it probably would be as difficult to name individuals (friends, for example) who do the same.

by golly, if i spend several years assembling a set of cert'd coins, your danged right i want this guarantee to apply to me as a seller, just as much as it did as a buyer. maybe that was the original concept, but i hardly believe anyone today would think that the guarantee shouldn't apply both when you buy & sell a coin.

btw, i cannot find ngc's guarantee on their website. anyone got a link to it??? wouldn't you think it'd be 1 of the easiest pages to find on their site???




<< <i><< 2. "The Certified Coin Registry is the most accurate..." >>

They could be referring to the fact that they accept both NGC and PCGS slabbed material. On that basis, they have the potential to come closer to most accurately reflecting the truly best collections. Since PCGS doesn't allow NGC coins, and it's well known that there are some top coins in NGC holders, NGC is a step ahead in that regard. >>

OK




<< <i><< 3. "NGC's principles require that there are no conflicts of interest on any level... NGC graders are prohibited from buying or selling coins" >>

Arguing that there are ways around this, (which, of course there are), is like worrying that your bank teller is going to embezzle your paycheck. It's much ado about nothing. >>

i don't disagree w/you in principle, but for an issue that is "much ado about nothing", ngc took careful steps to mention it in their ad. isn't icg's method the best 1 out there? as i recall, you have to submit coins to icg through an independent 3d party.

K S

nwcs

NGC FAQs which includes overgrading and undergrading questions

NGC's guarantee

Gilbert

once again, no mention is made that the guarantee does not apply to undergrading of coins,

I really don't understand what you are saying. Either they agree its undergraded and upgrade it OR they don't agree and, well, there is the subjectivity present in any circumstance. How do you interpret that as "not applying" or applying "only 50% of time?"

baccaruda

<< Since when are people on this board concerned about NGC undergrading coins? >>

if you sell a coin that was undergraded by ngc, you are selling the coin for less than it's true value, & therefore are not making the profit you deserve to on the coin. despite russ's comments, it IS an issue, 1 that is conveniently glossed by grading co's. i fear that it is conveneiently viewed as a non-issue because it would require grading co's to guarantee a grade 100% in actuality, rather than only implying that they do so, which would be a far more difficult (though far more valuable to collectors) issue to address.


it doesn't really apply to sellers. slabbing is simply a measure to protect buyers in sight-unseen purchases, that's all. The seller sees the coin first-hand and can have the coin re-graded if he thinks the grade's too low. He also doesn't have to sell it. The buyer doesn't have these options, he simply gets screwed if the grade's incorrect (hence the gaurantee to ease the buyer's mind).

Russ

<< <i>so the needs of sellers are to be ignored? >>



Karl,

Since the grading guarantee system was put in place to protect buyers and buyers only, the needs of the seller is a non-issue.



<< <i>isn't icg's method the best 1 out there? >>



Theoretically, yes.

Russ, NCNE

dorkkarl

friends, then i'll have to agree to disagree w/ undergrading being an issue. as long the issue is glossed over as being a "non-issue", then accountability goes out the window, & will have to continue to avoid taking advantage of the slabing svc's. bottom line is clearly spelled out in the numerous threads whereby folks complain about their coins coming back undergraded, or having cracked coins out for re-submission & having them come back in a higher grade. seems to me that the value you get (for grade alone) is very poor for the cost to grade coins.

ie. it seems silly for anyone to ever complain about a coin being undergraded then, since it is only an issue for when it comes time to sell, but you are claiming the guarantee is only for buyers. doesn't anyone else find that curious? i am also very much surprised that it seems satisfactory to everyone here that the guarantee does not apply to undergraded coins. that seems to be very accepting of what i perceive to be a glaring weakness in plastic.

thanks for the link to the guarantee - it was easy to find. don't know why i couldn;t find it at 1st. is the version on the net THE version for ngc? does pcgs have one on their website as well? anacs? i find it very interesting that ngc clearly states the guarantee does not apply to copper. i thought i already knew that, but could swear i have seen posts in the past couple of months implying that ngc does guarantee grades on copper now.

1 last thought: as i stated previously, i do sense that ngc is starting to pull away from pcgs as a competitor. whaddyou say?

K S

nwcs

I think PCGS is the one who recently added copper to the guarantee. I could not find an online description of their guarantee, though. I do believe it is on the submission form, though. Here is ANACS's guarantee. Link

wingedliberty

I am very pleased with NGC and any problem that I have ever had has been
resolved promptly. I think their grading is as consistent as PCGS. I would equate
PCGS and NGC on the same level.


Brian.

baccaruda

seems to me that the value you get (for grade alone) is very poor for the cost to grade coins.

you got that right. no argument here. i think i figured a single grader grosses nearly $4,000 an hour at 15 secs per coin / $15 per coin (less of course the cost of the plastic slab and the time it takes for someone to put it in there).

braddick

KS- I see your points and most your reasoning is sound but where do you come up statistically NGC undergrades 50% of the time? I would think that as inaccurate. It might be 5% or even 10% (one in ten coins or so) but I doubt half of all coins graded via NGC are undergraded coins.
Unless, of course, they're mine. Or yours.

JoyofCollecting

I wish the grading services could guarantee they'll never undergrade a coin....but that is a subjective matter that I can't realistically expect them to guarantee with current technology. This won't happen until coins can be graded electronically to an objective standard. The guarantee I look for from a slab is:

1. Authenticity
2. Natural state
3. Minimum grade

As a buyer, these give me some amount of comfort...for series that I am not an expert in. I don't miss the days of constant haggling between seller and buyer over grade.

As a seller; these guarantees will make my coin more marketable to the masses.

LucyBop

I disagree!