SOME QUESTIONS/THOUGHTS CONCERNING COIN QUALITY

APA1709

Hello,

Correct this novice if he is wrong, but am I correct in thinking that.....

The best quality of coins (non proof) come from MINT uncirc sets because they are struck on special presses and struck with greater force than those minted for circulation. Since I enjoy buying coins, with the idea of salting them away from children, grandchildren, and for personal investment, am I correct in thinking that buying uncirc sets is the best method for obtaining quality?

If I wanted to put away larger quantities, again, for a period of several years, would you recommend mint sewn bags or mint rolls. For example, I purchased a 2002 Kennedy P&D bag. Would I have received better quality coins had I purchased the US MINT P&D rolls? My thinking is that coins in rolls can experience damage from the machines they are rolled through, but recently, another board member thought the quality was better in mint rolls vice bags because coins in bags tend to shift and get scratched. I'd like to hear what other, more experienced, collector's think.

And, has anyone ever submitted a coin for grading from a source other than an uncirc set, and if so, are these coins capable of high grades, MS-65 and above? I realize this thinking is slanted more towards modern coins.

And, does anyone have comments about buying BU rolls from the secondary market, i.e., an online coin dealer/E-Bay? I would like to obtain some BU rolls from previous years, would buying these BU rolls that were rolled from mint bags be a good idea? The more I consider these issues, I think that buying lower quantites of uncirc sets (for better quality) is a better idea than larger quanties of lesser quality coins.

Anyway, I will certainly appreciate any and all constructive thoughts and comments on this topic.

MacCoin

you must have a lot of storage space to be socking away moderns like that. but what the hey rolls are the way to go maybe you'll luckout and get a little colored roll rimrot. yep like the ebay sell ain't already cherry pick the nicest coins.
why not buy a few gem morgons or something if you just go to sock them away.

Mojoe

Hi APA- I think you can get better quality coins from rolls than from mint sewn bags. I've never bought a bag from the mint but have heard they sustain a lot of damage during shipping. If available, the rolls from your local bank will usually have several high-grade coins in them (at least in the case of state quarters). I think the Kennedy halves are only available from the US Mint.

abuell

If one can salt away mint bags (or for that matter rolls) of any coin it is dirt common now and always will be. You're better off spending the coins on something useful, like one really rare coin! Junk today - junk tomrrow.

Baley

why exactly do you want to sock away quantities of high mintage moderns?
investment?
I'd rather have one VF bust or EF seated quarter than 400 state quarters.
maybe thats just me tho

to answer your question, if you must have moderns, whether you buy bags or rolls, wear cotton gloves, examine each coin, select only the finest mark free pieces to carefully put away, and spend the rest.

imo saving a modern in less than 66 is a huge opportunity cost, when you could put the money into something truly scarce

GDJMSP

There is a huge difference in thinking regarding this subject. Some say there is no way that high grade modern coins will ever be hard to find while others say they will be. There will not be a definitive answer to this question until time passes and tomorrow comes. But you can formulate a pretty good idea of what will happen by looking at the past.

Now the first words out people's mouths will be - " they didn't mint coins in the millions or hundreds of millions back then ". Well that depends on when " back then " was and what coin you are talking about. As far back as 1907 the cent has been minted in the hundreds of millions. Even some years of the IHC approached 50 million coins. Some years of the Buffalo nickel & the Mercury dime had well over 50 million examples minted. But yet high grade examples of these coins do not exactly grow on trees nor are they abundant. And they sure don't give em away nowdays. But at the time they were issued - they were not that hard to find in grades of MS65.

I tend to think that peoples habits are not that much different today than they were then - and in 50 - 60 - 100 years - high grade examples of todays coins will be just as scarce as yesterdays coins are for us.

As for bags vs rolls - in both cases the coins go through counting machines. But in the bags they then also go through much shifting & tossing around during shipment. And to my way of thinking this only adds additional marks & dings. So I would prefer the rolls.

As to where to buy them - first choice would be directly from the Mint for those denominations that can be obtained in rolls from the Mint. This eliminates cherry picking by a second hand seller. For other denominations - a bank. While this may not totally eliminate the chances of cherry picking it will lessen it.

As for the finer examples being found in Mint Sets - a definite yes. While it is possible to find gems in rolls - it is far more likely to find them in Mint Sets.

Now will you be successful in your efforts ? You probably won't ever know. But your children or grandchildren will - provided they retain your collection.

APA1709

All, thanks for your thoughts. Based on general consensus, as I interpret it, hoarding lots of moderns is not probably going to be a good investment, at least not for many years. And, hoarding quantities of high mintage coins will most likely never see an increase in value, at least not in my lifetime. I don't collect high mintage issues, at least I try not to, but I do like to salt away somewhat lower mintages in BU rolls, for example, I did put away an OHIO-P 250.00 mint bag and a few of the official us mint P&D roll sets, I have not saved any of the higher mintage statehood quarters in any significant quantity. But, for example, I thought the Sacagawea and Kennedy issues were worth saving this year. And, I try to put several mint sets each year, somewhere between 50 and 200 each year. I appreciate all of your feedback and will take the advice on board. I guess I hadn't given significant consideration into buying rarer coins because of my lack of knowledge. Obviously I need to get smarter, and that's the reason I read these boards, listen to all opinions and will join a local coin club this year.

Again, thanks for your thoguhts....I am enjoying reading them.

Baley

good thread.
if this is true >> I tend to think that peoples habits are not that much different today than they were then - and in 50 - 60 - 100 years - high grade examples of todays coins will be just as scarce as yesterdays coins are for us.<< then imagine how scarce and desireable truly rare old coins will be!!

here I'm talking pre-1936 and especially pre-1836 material.

the big difference I see is that
A) moderns have huge mintages, classics have much smaller mintages
moderns made by modern machines, identical and perfect. classics made on antique machines, each different.
C) lots of people saving moderns in perfect condition, far fewer classics saved
D) nobody melting moderns, lots of classics got melted

like i said in another thread, diversification is key. if you must put moderns away, do the hiers a favor, sprinkle in a few high grade circ type coins from before 1892. they'll be glad u did.

abuell

As far back as 1907 the cent has been minted in the hundreds of millions. Even some years of the IHC approached 50 million coins. Some years of the Buffalo nickel & the Mercury dime had well over 50 million examples minted. But yet high grade examples of these coins do not exactly grow on trees nor are they abundant. And they sure don't give em away nowdays. But at the time they were issued - they were not that hard to find in grades of MS65.Text

It's not how many were minted that is important, it's how many survived in high grade that is. In the early part of the 20th century coins were not hoarded by collector/investors as they are today. A high percentage of the mint state coins surviving from the early part of the century can be traced back to Wayte Raymond and a few other coin dealers who salted away the 'modern issues' of the period. Today everyone and his kid brother is slabbing anything common that they can get their hands on hoping to be rich someday - it ain't going to happen.

I've lost count of the number of times that someone has presented me with 'my grandfather's collection'. Invariably it's a large quanity of pure junk and I have to tactfully tell someone that ' 50 years ago your grandfather had a choice - to buy one really outstanding coin or a new car. He chose to buy the car.

cladking

Many of the moderns are rare now. Thes coins are not low priced because they are
common. They are not low priced because they were minted in large quantity. They
are low priced because the demand is very low. Listen to these people telling you
that moderns are crap. How many modern coins do you think these people own?
Well not only don't these people have any moderns but for the main part no one else
does either. The coins don't exist in new condition because everyone knows they are
common! There are some which are very common but many others will be very
difficult to find. If you can find some of these coins to set aside by all means do, it won't
take long for you to be rewarded. They are a blast to collect whether you are getting
them for yourself or for your grandkids. Demand for moderns is soaring and some rarities
are becoming apparent.

If you want to save the very recent dates it will take longer in most cases for the typical
example to be appreciated. Some of these are being set aside in huge quantity. While
there's nothing wrong with collecting or saving such coins the quantities involved so far
will suppress the prices for many years. By the same token there may well be a good
date in the future and you may miss it if you don't save them all. Recent issue dimes are
not being saved in quantities.

Lots of he moderns are virtually non existent in rolls so you couldn't save them if you wanted
to. People just didn't save things like rolls of 1970 quarters or 1973-D dimes. Look until
you're worn out and you aren't going to find such rolls. Most of the handfull of rolls avail-
able on the market were assembled from mint sets. It is just as well since the coins which
generally were struck for circulation were horrendous. The coins were poorly struck from
misaligned and badly worn dies. The coins were then mangled before they even left the
mint. The mint set coins aren't always a lot better but the mint set coins were struck at
higher pressures from new dies. Many will be banged up, but some are not. These are the
coins that collectors seek. These are the coins which are mostly in the shortest supplies and
greatest demand. These are the coins which are CURRENTLY leading the price advances in
the coin hobby.

Finding mint sets is getting more difficult all the time. There is a retail market developing in
modern coins and it is getting increasingly difficult for anybody to compete with the legions
of new collectors. More and more of all the modern coins are trading at retail and this includes
the BU rolls and the mint and proof sets. Collect and save what you find enjoyable or inter-
esting, but remember most of those who slam moderns do so because they have an axe to
grind.

abuell

<<Listen to these people telling you that moderns are crap. How many modern coins do you think these people own?>>

I certainly would hope none! 'These people' can see them for what they really are.

<<remember most of those who slam moderns do so because they have an axe to
grind. >>

Yes, and those who can see the scams and swindles for what they really are are dismissed as 'disgruntled ex-employees'

MacCoin

first I didn't see any slamming of moderns. the 1999 proof sets sold for 24.99 new from the mint in 99 try to find a 99 proof set for less than $150.00 today.

ClausUrch

What CladKing said!!!

jclout

1999 Silver mint set bought for $32 now goes for $120 on ebay. Buy a few sets to keep and a few to sell.

The coin population back then was lets say 1 million - 50 million each verses US population of about 50 million people. Now US population is around 285 million (I think) and the coin population is around 500 million - 1.5 billion for each coin.

I have been collecting the Proof sets. I don't think the proof coins will increase in value like the MS coins. But in 50 years how many proof coins or MS coins will be around for the 500 million people. In other words the coin supply will try to supply the US population and as the population grows so does the amount of coins. In 50 years who knows how many collectors will be out there.

I have also been putting aside some Morgans, Walkers, Buffalo, ect....

Mojoe

I don't collect modern coins but as the state quarters are issued, I pick up two rolls at the bank and save 3 or 4 mark-free examples and spend the rest. They may appreciate in value some day. When the state quarter program first began, my wife asked if I wanted any Delaware rolls from the bank (she deals with them on a daily basis). I said no- the mint churned out several hundred million of the little boogers. One month later, Del. rolls were selling for $55 retail. Ten years from now, maybe these moderns will be worth owning. I don't know. At face value, you sure can't go wrong.

supercoin

If you're looking for high-grade coins to hold for a long time, it's better to search them now, sell the scraps (99% of the coins), and bank the money. If that's the case, you're correct that the current mint sets will usually yield the largest number of high-grade coins, though there are exceptions (e.g. 2000 Sacagaweas). After that, generally rolls will be better than bags, despite having to survive the rolling machine.

If you're putting large quantities away as a shorter-term (several year) speculation, then leave them all in sealed bags/boxes and hope for the best. It's something of a gamble, but your chances of getting a big return (particularly as a novice collector) are far better than putting the same money into a classic coin. And if you choose somewhat intelligently, the downside risk is probably similar.

If/when you do get a nice return, dump them at the first sign of fading interest, because signficant annual returns are likely not sustainable (that holds true for virtually all coins). In my opinion, over the long-term, coins perform poorly compared to more conventional investments. Do a search for previous threads for heated debate on the subject.

Good luck!

APA1709

You experienced/experts have made a believer out of me.....that.....I am most likely out of focus in regards to my collection of moderns and their potential future (short term / long term) value.

In the future I will limit my collection of moderns to:
1. First and foremost, I will collect those that I enjoy possessing.
2. Collect in modest quantities.
3. Not trying to be speculative about future/near term value.
4. Get smart on rarer/older coins and dedicate expendable income towards that endeavor, in good time.

So, you can expect a future post concerning purchasing rare coins .

Thanks to all of you who posted to this thread, I sincerely appreciate your sharing of knowledge.

GDJMSP

<< <i> It's not how many were minted that is important, it's how many survived in high grade that is. In the early part of the 20th century coins were not hoarded by collector/investors as they are today. A high percentage of the mint state coins surviving from the early part of the century can be traced back to Wayte Raymond and a few other coin dealers who salted away the 'modern issues' of the period. Today everyone and his kid brother is slabbing anything common that they can get their hands on hoping to be rich someday - it ain't going to happen. >>



On this point we may differ a bit. Surprisingly enough - if you take the time to do the research - in a great many cases you can find more high grade examples of the classics or older coins than you can for the moderns. I am not talking about just MS65's here - I mean MS67 and above.