The Search for 70DCAMs

Typetone · January 3, 2003 7:08AM

OK, I finally did it. I went through all my 69DCAMS, about 120 of them, to try to find worthy candidates to submit for a regrade to 70DCAM. After going through all of them I found only 9 worth trying: 5 zinc Lincolns, 2 gold $5 commems, 1 $25 gold AGE, and 1 clad statehood quarter. I mailed them yesterday. I will let the board know in a month or so if I got anything. I figure 1 regrade is better than break-even, more than 1 is gravy, and the most likely case of zero means I paid tuition money. Here's what I already learned:

1. Under 10x, every proof has some flaw, however minor, even my "flawless" 70s.

2. It is hard to examine mirrors under plastic PCGS holders.

3. You develop a terrible case of nausea after looking at the 100th proof.

Cheers

Greg

Russ · January 3, 2003 7:21AM

I found a total of three. They're already in, arrived on the 27th.

Russ, NCNE

WalkerGuy · January 3, 2003 8:38AM

Good luck to all who try, I can't imagine a more gorgeous coin than a 70DCAM. Here's the question though. Is there a difference to the eye, 3X, 7X or how far do you go?
When all is said and done, can you see any difference by looking at it, do all the minor, tiny things that are evident under magnification only, make any difference? Is it the grade and not the coin? Is the coin really perfect?

Dick

Russ · January 3, 2003 9:17AM

WalkerGuy,

To the naked eye, there really isn't any difference between a PQ 69DCAM and a 70DCAM. Matter of fact, there are many recently graded 69DCAMs that look better than earlier graded 70DCAMs - at least in my series.

An "all there" high end 69DCAM will have a fantastic strike, thick unbroken bright white frost on the devices, and black as coal brilliant smooth mirrors. All of which will make it look like it's 70DCAM brother.

Now, if comparing an average run-of-the mill 69DCAM to a true 70DCAM, yep, there is a visual difference.

Here's one of the coins I just submitted for regrade:

This is one that I laterally upgraded in my set four times. The faint fade you see in the right field is reflection from the slab.

Russ, NCNE

WalkerGuy · January 3, 2003 10:03AM

Russ,
The coin is beautiful beyond words. I wish I had a few dozen like it!! Now my question. Is it a perfect coin? Make no mistake that I would take it in a heartbeat, but is there a true 70 out there. I don't get that high and do not operate in the circles that have coins that get that grade, I get a nosebleed just looking at them.
I truly enjoy your pictures and ideas.
Dick

Bear · January 3, 2003 10:07AM

Russ - The pictured coin is trash. Just send it to me and I will dispose of it and save you

the trouble and anguish. Gosh its ugly. Bear

Russ · January 3, 2003 10:08AM

<< <i>Is it a perfect coin? >>

WalkerGuy,

To be honest, I'm not sure such an animal as a "perfect" coin exists. This one has no visible flaws at 5X as near as I can determine while viewing through the slab. But, I think that even the very best coin will have some flaw under high enough magnification.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · January 3, 2003 10:10AM

Bear,

Too late. PCGS already has it in their hot little grading hands. Well, actually, it's probably still sitting in the receiving department.

Russ, NCNE

Bear · January 3, 2003 10:12AM

Russ - Did you request the usual fingerprint or just hazing.

Russ · January 3, 2003 10:13AM

Bear,

I went for the combo package.

Russ, NCNE

TWQG · January 3, 2003 10:59AM

<< <i>PCGS already has it in their hot little grading hands >>

This may be truer than you think

MoneyLA · January 3, 2003 3:31PM

While I have little experience regarding the modern 70DCAMs, Ive got my share of experience regarding pre-1965 pr70 Washingtons and what makes them. The difference between a 69 and 70 usually came down to the detail of the strike. Other than that, 70s must be flawless under 5x magnification. I'm going to take a "stab" at saying that the 5x rule holds as well as the deepness or intensity of the frosting is what they are using now as their guidelines. I know that the FEW 70dcam moderns that Ive had have all had what appears to be six feet of snow on the clear ice, though under 10k magnification there appear to have been flaws.

My personal quest right now is for a high grade on a proof 1950 Lincoln. While it lacks frosting for a cam designation the strike is extremely intense with no mushy features and plenty of crisp detail. Im hoping for a PR67 on this one. It was submitted about two weeks ago, and I will report back. This, by the way, was the raw proof Linc that I bought a few months ago and once discussed on this message board.

cheers and happy new year, alan mendelson

Typetone · January 4, 2003 12:54AM

LA

I agree about the frosting. Each candidate I submitted was extremely deep. Any modern 70 I've seen has incredible frosting.

Greg

MoneyLA · January 4, 2003 7:51AM

Greg, I know you've got a good eye for seeing tiny flaws -- and if the coins you resubmitted for possible upgrades to 70 have the deep frosting that we both "know" I think you've got a good shot at your upgrades. Best of luck and let us know!! cheers, alan mendelson

leothelyon · January 4, 2003 8:39AM

The dates from the 98-S silver Kennedy's and up, PCGS has graded 7948 PCGS PF69 DCAMS and only 2 PCGS PF70 DCAMS. So I think you got 25 millionth of 1% chance to find a PCGS PF70DCAM Kennedy for those dates. You and I KNOW a few of those PF69DCAMS should be PF70DCAMS.

Leo

Russ · January 4, 2003 10:05AM

One of the three on my upgrade submission is from that date period; the 1999 Clad. This one:

It's head and shoulders above any other '99 Clad I've seen and has the contrast that is usually only seen on the silvers from that year. Crossed fingers.

Russ, NCNE

spadesjedi · January 5, 2003 2:24AM

Question:

Did you guys crack out your coins or send them in their existing PR69DC holders?

MoneyLA · January 5, 2003 5:09AM

Spadesjedi: an excellent question and one that has come up on these boards before.

My opinion is NEVER to risk cracking out ahigh grade coin because if nothing else, you run the risk of damaging the coin during the crack out process.

Other reason for NOT cracking out: you run the risk that the coin you just removed from a pr69dcam holder might not even make it back into a pr69dcam holder.

Others believe that you have a fair shot at an upgrade as a "raw" coin because it eliminates cross over prejudice (when a cross over submission) or upgrade prejudice (when already in a pcgs slab).

I look at upgrade and crossover submissions this way: it costs $30 and if your payoff is substantially more than $30 (an attractive multiple of $30) go for it. But don't lose the security of the holder/grade you already have.

cheers, alan mendelson

Russ · January 5, 2003 5:13AM

<< <i>Did you guys crack out your coins or send them in their existing PR69DC holders? >>

I left them in the holders. I've cracked out a lot of slabs, so it's nothing new for me. But, I felt it was too much risk cracking them out at this potential grade level.

Russ, NCNE

Typetone · January 5, 2003 6:20AM

I submitted mine in their holders. David Hall tells us there is no difference as PCGS cracks out the coins (but preserves the grade in the computer), before the graders see them.

Greg

ClausUrch · January 5, 2003 10:54AM

When cracking out coins, do yourself a favor and wear some sort of safety glasses. That plastic likes to fly all over the place and comes off the slab at over a hundred miles an hour and aims right for your eye!

Bear · January 5, 2003 11:05AM

Claus - Thank you for the reminder. If it saves even one collector from eye injury,

you have done a noble service.

MoneyLA · January 5, 2003 6:16PM

A couple of follow-ups:

Claus, you are ABSOLUTELY correct in your warning. Thanks for bringing it up; it can never be repeated enough. For the few times I cracked out coins, I lightly tapped the edges with a hammer in an effort NOT to have plastic fly -- but small pieces always do and it is the SMALL pieces that are the most dangerous.

Greg, your comment "David Hall tells us there is no difference as PCGS cracks out the coins (but preserves the grade in the computer), before the graders see them" concerns me.

Im sure the PCGS graders see the NGC slabs I send in for crossovers. There is no way PCGS will crack open an NGC slab then reslab my coin when it gets a DNC. This seems to add further evidence to the common belief of slab-envy preventing crossovers and upgrades, hmm....

Or does PCGS put a strip of tape over the NGC grade and then lets the PCGS graders work under the "don't peek honor system?"

cheers, alan mendelson

Bear · January 5, 2003 11:53PM

Alan - You almost got it right, except the tape goes over the graders eyes,

so that they can be compleately unbiased.Not being able to even see the coin

makes everything on the up and up.

spadesjedi · January 6, 2003 1:53AM

Wether or not the grader sees the grade the coin is already slabbed at
when the coin is sent for regrade or cross is very important to know.

Can we get a definitive answer on that?

Typetone · January 6, 2003 6:06AM

LA:

David Hall tells us that on crossovers, the grade is covered. They are considering letting the graders see the grade as that might allow more crossovers. I.E., if it is close give it to them.

On regrades, the coin is first cracked out of the PCGS holder, according to David.

Greg

DAM · January 6, 2003 8:08AM

Greg or anyone,

On regrade, if the coin keeps it's original grade, does the cert number remain the same?

supercoin · January 6, 2003 8:57AM

There might not be any consistency -- on downgrades (not quite the same) I've had it happen both ways. Once a new serial number was issued, and another time the same serial number was re-used (and the online database reflected the new grade).

The Search for 70DCAMs

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