have you ever heard this phrase; it's a gem for the type? or gem for the grade?
barberlover
Posts: 2,228 ✭✭
one knock i've always had with the grading services is their [in my opionion] seems to be this tendency to give the benefit of the daught to significant luster breaks or luster remaining only in the protected areas or luster that has significant rub in appearance on 100-200 year old mint state coins. my defenition of a mint state coin is that if a coin is truely mint state then it should be in the state it left the mint in. in other words if a flying eagle cent left the mint with the luster of a new indian or lincoln, theny why do so many graded 64 and 65 have a rub in appearance for the luster. why do so many seated halves graded mint state even up to the grade of 67 have huge luster breaks to the right of the portraight especially between the elbow and the knee. its not because as some dealers have told me "thats the way they come" thats b.s. recently i saw a very rare old bust 10 dollar gold coin on the websight of a dealer i do buisness with that is graded p.c.g.s. 65. if that luster where on a modern coin it would be hard pressed to make au 53. not only wasn't the luster full, but the only traces of luster left were in the protected areas near the rim, but since it had a trace of luster left and has clean surfaces its called a gem. another way over used excuse for this by the coin dealer breatheren to help brainwash um, sorry i mean educate us as to the reason for these luster problems on older mint state coins is called "cabinet friction" while i do not claim to know because im not 100-200 years old if there really is such a thing as cabinet friction, i will always go back to my own defenition of mint state when i'm considering a coin purchase. toning happens naturally over time, but luster rub or luster breaks are caused by circulation or handeling so i go back to this idea when im thinking of purchasing a mint state coin. if the coin is in mint state the luster should be in the state it left the mint, with marks or lack of them determining the technical grade.
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
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Comments
K S
The term "mint state" is used synonymously with "uncirculated." And, an older uncirculated coin is rarely, if ever, in the condition it was upon leaving the mint.
Since the grading scale currently in use includes grades of MS60 to MS70, there will be many conditions of mint state coins. Your definition of mint state might be correct, technically, but it is not the one in use by the grading services or the majority of coin buyers and sellers.
such coins FREQUENTLY turn up as "ms-6?" in slabs. sure, they may not actually have entered general circulation, but i will contend that such coins should NOT end up slabed as "mint-state". true, "about uncirculated", implying "circulation has occured" is not semantically correct, as circulation did not cause the wear, but from strictly a numbers point of view, the coins should grade no higher than "58". i just can't accept such coins ending up in MS slabs, surely not MS-65 slabs!!!
regarding gold sliders, similar situation. these coins jostled about so much in bags, because of the higher mass (relative to silver/copper) of the coins, impacts displaced more metal on other coins. once a certain threshold of surface metal displacement occurs, such coins should NOT qualify for MS grades, even if the coins spent their entire lives at the mint in bags. it is the old problem that is more prevalent in gold than any other series, where a au-58 or even au-55 truly should be worth more than what is often cert'd as "ms-60/61/62" but with heavy surface displacement from storage. i, & i'm sure you too, have seen extrordinarily ugly, horribly bagmarked gold in ms-62 holders, & it just shouldn't happen, especially since one sees unbagmarked coins at the same grade.
just my opinion, & i doubt the plastic co's would change their practice becuase of my my worthless opinion, but it sure as heck bothers me, esp. when so many contend that you should ONLY buy gold in plastic (due to rampant fakes). but i'm really surprised this doesn't bother more folks.
K S
You asked "mark, i'm very interested in hearing from a coin dealers perspective what other than marks or lack of them separates the different points of mint state in non copper coins"
As you mentioned later in your post, luster is a consideration, too. Some coins are simply made / struck better, luster-wise, than others. Other factors besides luster and marks, that affect the grade are strike; the degree of acceptable"rub" or friction (that has been mentioned previously and which can still be present on mint state coins); mint made defects such as planchet flaws, adjustment marks, grease streaks; color; eye appeal and man-made or environmentally caused flaws / problems such as slide marks, hairlines, cleaning, spotting, staining.