For those of you who think Deb's on the up and up

shirohniichan · January 2, 2003 1:24PM

A member of the dark side showed me one of his latest auctions. Starting a $6 coin at $60 and getting bids is an art!

FC57Coins · January 2, 2003 1:27PM

Oh brother. That's a perfect example of how newbies get taken every day. Fortunately it wouldn't be a lesson that would be too hard to swallow - but it would sure make some little kid upset if they were the recipient of a $6 that cost $66 plus shipping - Oh well - so much for mom and apple pie huh?

Frank

shirohniichan · January 2, 2003 1:41PM

He uses the same old lady schtick and suckers people all the time. If it works, don't change!

Cam40 · January 2, 2003 1:47PM

We should add to the list..`Buy the coin ,not the story`.
The Deb and Harold story.

benloe · January 2, 2003 1:54PM

That is just about over the edge.

gmarguli · January 2, 2003 2:06PM

Art? More like scam.

The coin wasn't minted in 1780 - more like last month.

Maybe I should copy his crap and use it for one of my auctions. I can sell a State Quarter and say that it is 200 years old becaus eit says 1803 on it.

Loki · January 2, 2003 2:32PM

Are you saying that "Deb" is just some dude selling coins and "Harold the late-husband" was made up??

Man oh man, you learn something new every day.

Hey Clankeye, you have a gift of the keyboard; want to earn an ez commission just by writing my listings?

FlyTooHigh · January 2, 2003 3:07PM

Loki? Where have you been? Ye Gads! It's a tale and there are boundless threads here!

Tony

mr1931S · January 2, 2003 3:38PM

the use of the word "rare" has sunk to a new level,even for ebay...

Loki · January 2, 2003 4:03PM

Fly, That one just slipped by me! I never knew that.

mr1931S · January 2, 2003 4:07PM

was looking at a so-called "red" '14-D Lincoln this seller had up in an earlier auction...

"red" if you're color-blind,i suppose...

mr1931S · January 2, 2003 4:16PM

the gift of gab sells a cleaned '14-D Lincoln for $3600...

that buyer in for a nice surprise if PCGS sees it...

mr1931S · January 2, 2003 4:31PM

gee,107 silver certificates in "bad shape" up to $132 already...

three days to go bargain hunters...

Tade · January 2, 2003 9:49PM

Even though my wife paid $7.00 for this coin for Christmas, this coin is very deceptive. First it says 1780 on it and it names M. Theresia as the woman. She thought it was a commerative to Mother Theresa. After I got it, it was very hard to find out anything about the coin.

I agree that the seller should or does know that it is a $6 - $7 coin, but the general public would be fooled as we were. At first glance it really looks like something that given the right care, could have been struck in 1780. As far as the M. Theresia, that is really close, even though the real one would not be that heavy.

This is a tough situation and I really believe that the bidder is not alone in paying a real premium for this coin, as I bet thousands were sold nation wide and you can believe, it will show up on Coin Vault soon.

ms71 · January 2, 2003 11:41PM

This one looks like an easy call to me - it's simple fraud. The seller knows full well that there's no possible way to state authoritatively that the coin was "printed in 1780". Like many, I'm constantly amazed at what some people will stoop to in order to separate the unwary from a few bucks. Wait til the buyer (or someone to whom he makes a proud gift of the coin) strolls it into his friendly neighborhood coin shop. Storefront dealers must have to deal with this all the time, and they take the heat for some slimeball's ill-gotten gains. Makes you puke. Sure there's "caveat emptor", but when the seller states that the coin was made in 1780, and knows full well the history of these thalers, then to me it's blatant fraud. I only hope the buyer remembers where he got it, and responds in kind.

coinguy1 · January 2, 2003 11:48PM

I'm curious - how many of you that see these auctions contact the buyers to let them know?

It seems that, if it could be done within Ebay rules (and I don't claim to know what the rules are regarding contacting a winning bidder like that after a sale has ended), it would be very beneficial to a lot of people who are getting hosed.

It also seems much more constructive than simply mentioning it here, where the unsuspecting buyers will not benefit from the observations. I'm not passing judgment on anyone here but do wonder how often the buyers are notified by those of you who know better? Thanks.

shirohniichan · January 2, 2003 11:54PM

Maybe "Deb" should be made marketing manager for Hackugrade. A lot of folksy chit-chat and naive-sounding words (e.g. saying the coin was "printed") can fool lots of people into thinking they're taking advantage of an old widow who's dumping old Harold's collection. It's amazing how she keeps finding things even though she supposedly sold the last of his coins a long time ago, moved into a small apartment, etc. I'm convinced Harold is still collecting from the grave if even after moving into a new apartment Deb still discovers coins he stashed away.

BigE · January 3, 2003 12:02AM

I think Deb is Mrs. Havershams neice-------BigE

JMOORE · January 3, 2003 12:28AM

I completely agree with Mark and ms71.

In my oppinion people like this are scum.

And yes, I am going to contact the buyer and show him this LINK.

Jim

dorkkarl · January 3, 2003 12:40AM

they are common as dirt, but are all of these "thalers" the same variety? there were 4 bids, maybe the bidders know something we don't. these have been "printed" at various mints, so i'd expect someone might collect 'em by variety.

K S

cosmicdebris · January 3, 2003 12:44AM

This ain't right at all. By the way anyone notice anyone familar in their feedback from about 2 weeks ago?

dorkkarl · January 3, 2003 12:51AM

here's something truly bizarre!!!

deb's last f/b posted 1/2/03 - on an item that ended 1/1/03!

man, these deb threads are the best

K S

paigowjohnny · January 3, 2003 1:21AM

Boy...some buyer is gonna be real pissed when they figure this one out !!!

shirohniichan · January 3, 2003 1:36AM

I was going to post a link to a discussion of Deb's past questionable practices, but some personal information (name and address) still haven't been edited out of a member's post so I'll refrain.

For you new members, let's just say there have been a number of discussions about Deb.

Bulldog · January 3, 2003 1:51AM

Shiro - San,

Is this guy a friend of yours, or was it a friend that showed it to you? Confused

Bulldog

shirohniichan · January 3, 2003 2:16AM

Bulldog, a forum member sent me the link.

Spinynorman · January 3, 2003 2:37AM

I saw it being discussed on the eBay coin chat yesterday and pointed it out to Shiroh, since I knew how fond he was of Deb.

I wasn't sure how to tell the difference between an original and restrike until I saw yesterday (thanks cameo2) that it was in the reverse legend. It is AUST on the original and AVST on the restrikes, in case anyone else was curious.

mr1931S · January 3, 2003 2:38AM

coinguy:
>>>It also seems much more constructive than simply mentioning it here, where the unsuspecting buyers will not benefit from the observations. I'm not passing judgment on anyone here but do wonder how often the buyers are notified by those of you who know better? Thanks.

Mark,i agree with you except that emailing bidders with knowledge,information or opinions about a seller's items could easily be considered "auction interference" by ebay.Look at the feedback on this seller...all these happy,satisfied customers...it appears that some have been enamored by the gabby one to the extent that they just don't get it,the fact that they've been taken...

i would say that,at this time, one of the most effective thing one can do is to contact the seller and do the informing that way...no way could one be accused of "auction interference"...
also,contacting ebay about one's concerns has been known to work to get auctions pulled...
and,i've been known to contact the manufacturer when i see items offered that i suspect are infringing on copyright or trademark...i notified PCGS about an ebay auction that was clearly infringing on their trademark awhile back...action was taken...the auction was pulled by ebay and it happened because members here,not just me,took various measures so that getting the auction pulled could happen...

the main concern i have about these unethical auctions is that they are a blight on the hobby and some people (i shudder to think about the real numbers of people) who get burned by these quick buck artists will eventually be lost forever to the hobby...

i would be in favor of ebay adding to their staff people knowledgeable in numismatics that can monitor and nip these questionable auctions in the bud...really,$60 starting bid for a "rare" coin "printed in 1780"...the game she's playing is "feigned ignorance"...

the hack writing gabby one is laughing all the way to the bank...it's really nauseating...

NumisEd · January 3, 2003 2:47AM

Yes, I also think that Deb's auctions are hurting some people. BUT......but people get hurt in commerce every day. In our hobby, people get hurt by buying slabbed mistakes. The poor person who bought the NY copper in the PCGS overgraded slab (see singapore's thread) will lose at least $10,000 on that transaction. Has anyone ever lost $10,000 on one of Deb's auctions? In all fairness, people also get hurt by purchasing raw coins that are misrepresented.

Also, check out her feedback. Do you think that NGC, PCGS or ANACS would have feedback as flawless as Deb's?? Ha! I think not. This is just one reason why I have hesitated on buying coins through the internet.

mr1931S · January 3, 2003 3:54AM

yeah,NumisEd mistakes in representations and purchases based on mistakes in representations are made every day...

i've adopted a new policy based on my own not-so-satisfactory experience lately with an ebay coin seller and what i've been seeing lately with some of these "rare' coin auctions...

no declaration as a member of ANA to be found in auction listing?...i will not bid...i will "ask the seller a question" about this if i don't see it in the description for an item that interests me...i don't care if you're offering SVDB's for a dollar apiece...

i do not fear buying a raw coin...at least if a seller is an ANA member they MUST refund my money if i'm unhappy with my purchase FOR ANY REASON (like,"new information") or NO REASON AT ALL providing i comply with reasonable things like returning the coin i received within the return privilege time frame in the same untampered-with-by-me package i received it...

more wide-spread reasonable conduct of buyers and sellers is what numismatics sorely needs and what seems to be so sorely lacking these days...the future of the hobby is in jeopardy unless more old-fashioned reasonableness comes back to it...

coinguy1 · January 3, 2003 4:17AM

mr1874 ,

I agree with your sentiments "more wide-spread reasonable conduct of buyers and sellers is what numismatics sorely needs and what seems to be so sorely lacking these days...the future of the hobby is in jeopardy unless more old-fashioned reasonableness comes back to it..."

In reference to your comments about contacting the Ebay seller, rather than the bidder or buyer - it might not help to contact the seller because if he or she is intentionally misleading bidders, it wont matter what we think or say. But, it can't hurt, either, and sometimes the seller is misinformed, rather than dishonest. As I'd mentioned, I'm not clear on Ebay rules regarding one's contacting a buyer AFTER the sale has ended. I have done so on some occasions, figuring I was taking a risk but that it was for a good cause.

NumisEd · January 3, 2003 4:21AM

I did not know that ANA members MUST refund money on a purchase for any reason. If they don't, are they expelled from the club? A fine? Any smart seller would offer that type of guarantee, within reason. ANA member or not!

JLW · January 3, 2003 4:37AM

<< This ain't right at all. By the way anyone notice anyone familar in their feedback from about 2 weeks ago? >>

That's too funny, a self-proclaimed expert buying from someone like this. (I suppose he'll make good money on it though).
Joe

mr1931S · January 3, 2003 4:38AM

it is my understanding that this is the case NumisEd...i think i'm going to contact the ANA directly and see if i can get a clear statement from them this about this...stay tuned...i'll publish their words in a thread i'll start here in the future...

the recent experience i had was involving a seller who would not refund my money...he was not, to my knowledge, an ANA member...i simply told this seller that,as an ANA member,i take the code of ethics of the American Numismatic Association to heart...

dorkkarl · January 3, 2003 4:44AM

call me a cynic, but i don't put much stock in "ana" claims. i wonder how many "dealers" claim to be ana members, but are really referring to "alcoholic numismatists anoynomous".

K S

DMWJR · January 3, 2003 4:52AM

Karl, do you want to go another round or two about Deb ????????????????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

dorkkarl · January 3, 2003 11:39PM

<< After contacting the buyer of the Maria Theresa Thaler on the previous thread, I sent him the address of the thread that discussed DEB'S wayward ways. He contacted the seller and she agreed to give him the coin at a reasonable price or cancel the order completely. Guess we done good guys!

CIGARS FOR EVERYONE!!!

Here's the note from the buyer:

Frank,
I just got a note from Deb with a reasonable price offer or a transaction cancelation, my choice. I think she (?) is reasonable. There are several people out there trying to keep the sellers honest.

I received a reply from him just a little bit ago myself.

Thanks Jim,
Yes, Deb and I have worked this one out. She has been very reasonable. So, I am not sure she is a complete scam.

Thanks for watching out! >>

hooooooooooold on a minute!

"deb" did the right thing? the buyer is happy? where's the bandwagon? you know, the ones that said deb is scum, scam, etc etc, & was out to take advantage of newbies? the people jumping up & donw & pointing fingers with indignation about how newbies are loosing millions of dollars on bogus "deb" listings? interesting how "deb" threads ramble on & on about how horrific a rip-off artist "he" is, yet as soon as it is revealed that maybe, just maybe, there is the teensiest bit of evidence that this seller does something right once in a while, ..........................WHAM.

dead silence.

doug, i'd take you up, but i think the sudden silence of the masses speaks for itself.

K S

FC57Coins · January 3, 2003 11:45PM

Karl:

The above posting was not meant to imply that "DEB" did the right thing and so life is good. On the contrary - what I tried to show is that these kinds of threads can have a positive effect in uncovering "nice little old ladies" for what they are, and in this case the innocent bystander newby, was able to salvage his purchase. I'm not sure where all of this is going, but I wanted to make sure the record was set straight.

Frank

NumisEd · January 3, 2003 11:51PM

I think that some of the guys here on the forum are just upset because "Harold" didn't collect Frankies or Kennedy halves.

ClausUrch · January 3, 2003 11:53PM

So...we should do "the right thing" only if we get caught??

If we don't get caught, no harm no foul???

Taking advantage of newbies is just plain wrong...in general and also for the good of the hobby as a whole.

NumisEd · January 4, 2003 12:01AM

Hey, Heir Von Urch, take a look at Singapore's thread on the "5 most offensive dealers of 2002". Looks like Deb has way better feedback than any of the "big boys". Go pick on them and leave the old lady alone. Maybe I am missing something. Did "Deb" screw someone.? Could someone send me some links to the earlier threads that Shiro mentioned???

danglen · January 4, 2003 12:03AM

I purchased twenty lots from "Deb" before becoming a member of the forum. I did VERY well on 12 of them, got what was advertised on 7 of them and was disappointed in one one of the coins I received. Of course, this was early on, before Deb had developed a cult following. So I have no complaints. There have been several threads with compelling evidence to suggest that Deb is really a couple of guys operating out of Detroit, but I do get a chuckle out of her auctions, and some of the "Deb" posts have had me laughing so hard I was crying. Now, THAT'S ENTERTAINMENT!!!

FC57Coins · January 4, 2003 12:08AM

<< Taking advantage of newbies is just plain wrong...in general and also for the good of the hobby as a whole. >>

OK - maybe I'm missing the point here.

Shiro posts a thread exposing the fact that "DEB/HAROLD" is taking a newby for a ride.

After not seeing anyone post that they contacted the buyer, I contacted him and sent him the address of this thread so he could make up his own mind on how he wanted to proceed and the errors of his ways for falling into DEB's trap.

He contacts him/her/him/her and they come to a mutual understanding based on the newbies new found information.

This doesn't mean that DEB did nothing wrong, this means that WE did something right.

So - why's everyone's dander getting up???

Frank

ClausUrch · January 4, 2003 12:09AM

Whaat those dealers did in their business practices is also wrong and they, too should be held accountable and their business suffer until they again show a decent track record in their profession.

DMWJR · January 4, 2003 12:20AM

I totally agree with Baron Claus Von Urch.

LucyBop · January 4, 2003 12:21AM

<< Baron Claus Von Urch. >>

I love that Name!

dorkkarl · January 4, 2003 1:11AM

see, i told you these "deb" threads are way better than the "stinker-pooples" threads!

<< The above posting was not meant to imply that "DEB" did the right thing and so life is good. On the contrary - what I tried to show is that these kinds of threads can have a positive effect in uncovering "nice little old ladies" for what they are, and in this case the innocent bystander newby, was able to salvage his purchase. I'm not sure where all of this is going, but I wanted to make sure the record was set straight. >>

frank, i realy posted in jext, but 1 thing is not quite clear. it almost sounds like (in the "other" trhead) that "deb" made the offer to the bidder to lower the price BEFORE the bidder was aware of the problem.

otoh, if it were in the slightest way possible that "deb" really didn't know the coin was a restrike, then occam's razor would apply ....

(that ought to elicit a couple of chuckles)

see y'all on monday.

K S

For those of you who think Deb's on the up and up

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