The next bid on this Cent is around $15,500 with the buyers fee! This is a coin that sells for a few hundred dollars in PCGS-PR69DCAM (less than $500 certainly - right?)
Yet, a PA(d) quarter in PCGS-MS67 at say $750 will get warning after warning from certain board members Heck, an OH(p) quarter in PCGS-MS68 was getting "warnings" at $50/coin. And, remember the "fools' who pay $200 for the 1983(p) quarters in PCGS-MS66.
I believe one could still probably build a wonderful PCGS collection of (83) silver Wash quarters (1932-1964) for around the cost of this one 1963 Proof Lincoln. The quarter set could probably contain the 32(d) and 32(s) in MS64 and most of the other coins in gem 65 or better as well! That is where I would personally tuck my money if offered this coin vs. the quarter set. Who knows - by the time the 1963 Lincoln auction is over, the cost of the Lincoln might pay for the entire (83) Wash quarter set in gem MS65/66, save the 32(d) in MS64!! Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Well, going by the photos (always dangerous, of course)... I'd have to say it makes one of those hazy PR70 Ikes at $4K look cheap! So I thank it for taking that dubious honor away from my favorite series.
If I were PCGS I'd get cracking to make some more of this quick (and drive market value down) before this one comes home with a few dozen of his bro's.
"Mitch - You need to stop collecting quarters and start collecting Lincoln cents"
Stewart: Who says I haven't Do RED BROWN Wash Quarters struck on Lincoln planchets count? I just got in a wonderful 1964 RED BROWN silver quarter in high MS grade
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
You wouldn't pay $500? Oh come on, sure you would. I would pay $1,500 without even thinking about it, and probably more. I'm not a $12,000 buyer, but this is a rarity. Even a common date zinc proof in 70DCAM trades for at least $500.
You wouldn't pay $500? Oh come on, sure you would. I would pay $1,500 without even thinking about it, and probably more. I'm not a $12,000 buyer, but this is a rarity. Even a common date zinc proof in 70DCAM trades for at least $500.
Why? You know that in extreme likelihood the only reason this coin got graded PR70 instead of PR69 is because it was graded at a time when PCGS was blessing us with PR70s. There are 63 coins graded by them in PR69DCAM. If you were to resubmit all 64 coins (the 63 PR69s and the 1 PR70), how many would come back PR69/70 today/last month/a year ago/a year from now/etc?
And if ANY of those spots are actually on the coin, which I believe they are, then there is no way in hell that coin would regrade at PR70 today.
The is one of the clearest cases of someone buying the plastic.
I guess the registry motto of "Buy the holder, not the coin" still holds true.
Hey Russ; if there is not one visible micro nick anywhere on your Lincoln when examining it with a 10x loupe why not submit it? If you don't see any micro nicks and don't want to send it in, I'd do it for you and split the dough with you if it does go 70 DCAM...
Just an update - the coin is now at $21,500 with a couple days to go, including floor bidding. Hate to be sarcastic because apparently a couple of people love it, but that's over $3,000 per spot.
I just don't get it. With the juice it is close to $25,000. For close to that you could buy coins which are actually rare such as an MS63 bust dollar or MS65 High Relief or (4) PR65 Morgans. Hell, you could buy a PROOF Peace dollar for that kind of money.
I understand you buy what you like and if you can afford this, then why not, but the insanity of this is just overwhelming.
I think this just proves that it doesn't take brains to have money.
Geez, I guess I spoke too soon. At this rate, one might be able to buy an entire 83 PC. collection of Wash quarters in gem INCLUDING THE 32(d) for the cost of this cent!! What is more alarming about this price is the fact that a few of the strongest buyers of proof Lincolns in the country are obviously on the sidelines watching! Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I don't get the surprise. This coin is a rarity. It's almost unheard of for a coin from 50 to 64 to be graded 70DC, let alone a Lincoln. 25K is too high for me, but I certainly see why the spirited bidding. Again, I say if you disagree why not sell a few at that price. The answer that you don't have any, you can't make any, and you can't get any. It's a rarity and will trade at a super premium as long as there is demand for the series, and we know that proof Lincolns are hot.
For a 70DCAM proof Lincoln collector, this is it period. You might say who cares, one hairline less than a 69 (maybe). Well the 70DC collector cares because that is what they collect. Their tastes are their tastes. I could say the same about the 33 Saint in 65. It is basically the same as a 32 in 65 with a small three instead of a small two. For someone who is not a Saint collector like me it is a small difference. For a Saint collector it is a $7 million difference!
Typetone, look at the coin. It is spotted. There is no way the coin is a TRUE PR70. If a PR69 is a $500 coin, then someone is paying $24,500 for the cert number and $500 for the coin.
On another post, I did agree with you about the spots. If they are as bad as they look then the coin is not a 70DC. However, it is possible the spots are on the holder.
Hypothetically, let's say the coin is a real 70DC. Do you agree with my post then, or do you still disagree.
I believe the spots are on the coin and not the slab. The white areas I think are likely on the slab, but the dark spots are clearly on the coin, IMHO. I can see about 6 spots on the obverse.
The main thing I dislike about this coin is that it is VERY possibly that many of the ones graded PR69 could be better than this one, yet sell for a fraction of the price.
I will agree with you that if this coin is a TRUE PR70, then it deserves spirited bidding. For me, my value of this coin and other PR70s, you'd have to lop off a couple of those zeros before it would be at a value I think it is worth, but then again, I know people think I'm insane for paying multiples of sheet for toning.
It appears to have some splotchy discoloration too. Hey, maybe it's been windexed!
The point is that this coin is NOT a true PR70, anyone looking at the photo would have to believe that, and yet despite that obvious fact the bidding is (apparently) approaching 25 large. I also suspect that if the coin WAS a true PR70, the bidding would not be much higher, wouldn't you agree?
Ergo...
Clearly the bidders are not buying the coin. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's no pretending otherwise.
The good part is that even though somebody's "wasting" their money, somebody else is on the receiving end getting it. The money is probably even staying in the hobby. From that bigger picture, it's not the same as burning a stack of hundreds.
I have to believe that by bidding at the 25 big level, the bidders have either seen the coin or are prepared to send it back if it is not a real 70. I have to assume that it is being bid as if it were a real 70. So, I conclude that the price for this coin and the price of a real 70 would be bid similarly. A return option makes these auctions interesting. I would think PCGS might be sweating, as that is a lot of money to make good if it is a downgrade.
Let me try to narrow the points of discussion between two good, knowledgeable guys: Heritage sent me the coin to inspect a couple of weeks ago, and I can assure you that the spots are NOT on the holder, but on the coin itself. Ditto for those three splotches you see in the scan – they are on the coin.
I compared it to my PR69 and my copy won easily, but I wouldn’t waste even $1 to have mine submitted for possible upgrade to 70. I think there are a load of other 1963s out there that would top the 70 too; after all a grand total of 63 1963s have been graded PR69DCAM. I’m not good at guessing PCGS grades, but I think if the coin were submitted today it would be lucky to get a 67 and maybe not a DCAM designation.
I can not, under any reasonable circumstances, imagine that this coin was in this condition when PCGS originally graded it. It must have deteriorated in the holder. I wonder when the coin was slabbed – the earliest pop report I have laying around in mid-2000 and it was shown at that time, so it probably was slabbed at least three years ago.
I know a couple of strong Lincoln buyers are laying off the coin because they believe that it is not really PR70DCAM-quality, so it is conceivable to me that if this was a true 70 the bidding might even go higher.
Sorry, Tad, my understanding is that the seller is cashing in his chips and leaving the coin “hobby” so the money will not be recycled! What’s next for him? Who knows. Maybe Pez dispensers, but they're not certified!
BTW, has anyone noted that an upgrade from 69 to 70 is worth one whole registry point? Of course, that may make the difference between being #1 and #2 so I shouldn’t put down one point. Such is life in the registry world.
Typetone, I too agree that the coin is being bid like a true PR70. The only problem is the bidders are insane.
It would suck to be PCGS. Paying out $15,000 for Legends 1913-D MS66 Saint is one thing, but paying out $25,000 for a modern Lincoln cent must really suck (if they have to pay it out).
Gerry, I guess if I had a $25K PR70 Lincoln to sell I'd cash my chips too.
Unfortunately I can't agree with you that the coin definitely didn't have those problems when slabbed. The spate of PR70 Ikes (90% of which were from one bulk submission) had at least several that were slabbed with problems intact. I have seen and heard of other coins that did too.
I've never heard a reasonable explanation as to how some of these coins got into a PR70 holder. My pet theory is that someone at PCGS ordered new carpet installed and the graders went back to work before the glue fumes cleared.
To PCGS' credit, they have (to the best of my knowledge) taken care of every overgraded PR70 that has been sent in for downgrade. This $25K one would certainly test that to the extreme!
Here's a theory. Let's say that the high bid, suppose 25 big, decides to return the coin because it is overgraded. Then the seller returns the coin to PCGS for a downgrade. Suppose it downgrades. Can the seller then cite the $25K sales price and use that as the basis of a refund? Clever!!
Even with this one a true 70, if it is and even if it closes at $25,000.00 I say it is not a refection of the Registry Collectors but instead the want of a very few. This Collector does not speak for the rest of us.
The white cr@p is on the coin? And Heritage makes no mention of it in their auction description? If I won that and they didn't take it back, I'd sue them for misrepresentation (or whatever else I could come up with). They have no right to auction a dog without saying it's a dog!
Another update: the coin now has a bid of $30,000. For those of you too shocked to do the math, that means the price with the vig is $34,500!!!! And, of course, there is still another 1 hour 15 minutes to go before internet bidding closes - and then on to the floor bidding.
I must admit to being shocked. Am I too conservative because I think there is something terribly wrong here? And, I ask myself, is this a prelude to what will happen to all Lincolns as we approach 2009, the 100th anniversary of the Lincoln cent?
I viewed this Lincoln today - let's just say Gerry's assessment of the coin is accurate. I wonder if the bidding has any connection with PCGS possibly getting involved? Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
$39,100 and bidding hasn't hit the floor yet. Insanity!! I do hope it sells to a floor bidder so someone can report on what the most insane coin collector in the world looks like.
I doubt PCGS would be involved with this coin. I'm sure they'd like it to go as low as possible so if (when?) it gets resubmitted, they don't have to pay out a fortune.
It'd be rather funny if they downgraded the coin and only paid the owner a few hundred dollars (it's top value at most).
The one guarantee I had through PCGS, they paid me market value, not what I had paid for the coin. Fortunately for me, David Hall determined that market value was higher than what it cost me. I wonder what the market value determination would be on this coin? There are no others with which to compare as there was with mine.
If we agree the bidders are after the number on the holder, not the coin, why would they return it. The number is clearly a 70DCAM! PCGS will not need to worry about a downgrade until after it is sold again. Sorry to make light... I realize the bidders may be following this thread.
Sorry to make light... I realize the bidders may be following this thread.
Don't be sorry. Practically everyone understands that they're buying plastic and at an insane price. Perhaps if the buyer reads this he will wake up and realize how foolish he is?
Perhaps PCGS will grade a dozen more PR70s for this date and knock the price down a few decimal places?
I really hope it was David Hall who purchased that coin because if I was the bidder he would end up owning it anyway. This is why PCGS will not grade any wheat cent an MS68 or higher today. 10 years from now and some spot develops on an MS68,9,70 wheat lincoln, Joe Ihavetoomuchmoney buys the holder and his dealer tells him he got ripped. The coin is then sent back to PCGS and the company eats it. Meanwhile the Chairman of the board calls David and chainsaws his rear-end <think of good graphic in your head> for the quarterly numbers and alas no more MS68's or higher for copper.
My guess: The auctioneers had to wait after announcing the opening bid. There were too many people laughing to continue with the auction. They had to wait until the laughter died down, which understandably took several minutes.
Comments
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Yet, a PA(d) quarter in PCGS-MS67 at say $750 will get warning after warning from certain board members
I believe one could still probably build a wonderful PCGS collection of (83) silver Wash quarters (1932-1964) for around the cost of this one 1963 Proof Lincoln. The quarter set could probably contain the 32(d) and 32(s) in MS64 and most of the other coins in gem 65 or better as well! That is where I would personally tuck my money if offered this coin vs. the quarter set. Who knows - by the time the 1963 Lincoln auction is over, the cost of the Lincoln might pay for the entire (83) Wash quarter set in gem MS65/66, save the 32(d) in MS64!!
Russ, NCNE
doesn't hardly look Cam, much less DCam to me.
I would grade that coin PR69DCAM. That's because had this coin been graded within the last few years, it would have been a PR69 instead of PR70.
I'd be willing to pay $10 for the coin.
If I were PCGS I'd get cracking to make some more of this quick (and drive market value down) before this one comes home with a few dozen of his bro's.
That is insane !!! I wouldn't give $500 for it myself.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Hey Guys
There are at least two bidders bidding on this coin !!!!
Its called Registry Fever,Competition,Having an addictive personality,Insanity............and we're all part of it
This gives me the incentive to spend $65 to try and upgrade my 69 D Cam and put revenue into PCGS
Stewart
Mitch - You need to stop collecting quarters and start collecting
Lincoln cents
Lincoln cents"
Stewart: Who says I haven't
Wondercoin
You wouldn't pay $500? Oh come on, sure you would. I would pay $1,500 without even thinking about it, and probably more. I'm not a $12,000 buyer, but this is a rarity. Even a common date zinc proof in 70DCAM trades for at least $500.
Greg
Hey maybe I could buy the 50s MS68 dime and $4,000 of medication/treatment (i.e. aspirins for the headaches, ulcer medication and psychiatric visits).
I love Ike dollars and all other dollar series !!!
I also love Major Circulation Strike Type Sets, clad Washingtons ('65 to '98) and key date coins !!!!!
If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't we have more happy people ??
<< <i>but this is a rarity. >>
Greg,
I'm sorry, but IMO the only thing rare about that coin is the number on the label. Do you really think that piece is a 70DCAM?
Here is a DCAM:
It also doesn't have any spots in the obverse fields as the coin in that auction seems to.
Russ, NCNE
Why? You know that in extreme likelihood the only reason this coin got graded PR70 instead of PR69 is because it was graded at a time when PCGS was blessing us with PR70s. There are 63 coins graded by them in PR69DCAM. If you were to resubmit all 64 coins (the 63 PR69s and the 1 PR70), how many would come back PR69/70 today/last month/a year ago/a year from now/etc?
And if ANY of those spots are actually on the coin, which I believe they are, then there is no way in hell that coin would regrade at PR70 today.
The is one of the clearest cases of someone buying the plastic.
I guess the registry motto of "Buy the holder, not the coin" still holds true.
The registry says buy it and so you must.
At say $1,000 I would take it. At some point I would get a better one, get this one regraded and get my money returned.
Cheers
The Other Greg
How much would you pay for it in 6 months when it goes from a pop 1 coin to a pop....?
It's not a 70. If it were, it would already be in at PCGS along with three regrade candidates I sent in recently.
Russ, NCNE
I hope those spots on the obverse are on the holder and not the 70 coin, but it doesn't look like it.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
I understand you buy what you like and if you can afford this, then why not, but the insanity of this is just overwhelming.
I think this just proves that it doesn't take brains to have money.
I agree with the majority, those two spots make the coin at least prf69 and I don't see cameo.
Dan
Man, I'm soooo jealous.
I know what he paid for this coin when he bought it from R&I...
Maybe someone at NGC is running it up to stick PCGS with the $25K downgrade?
For a 70DCAM proof Lincoln collector, this is it period. You might say who cares, one hairline less than a 69 (maybe). Well the 70DC collector cares because that is what they collect. Their tastes are their tastes. I could say the same about the 33 Saint in 65. It is basically the same as a 32 in 65 with a small three instead of a small two. For someone who is not a Saint collector like me it is a small difference. For a Saint collector it is a $7 million difference!
Greg
On another post, I did agree with you about the spots. If they are as bad as they look then the coin is not a 70DC. However, it is possible the spots are on the holder.
Hypothetically, let's say the coin is a real 70DC. Do you agree with my post then, or do you still disagree.
Greg
The main thing I dislike about this coin is that it is VERY possibly that many of the ones graded PR69 could be better than this one, yet sell for a fraction of the price.
I will agree with you that if this coin is a TRUE PR70, then it deserves spirited bidding. For me, my value of this coin and other PR70s, you'd have to lop off a couple of those zeros before it would be at a value I think it is worth, but then again, I know people think I'm insane for paying multiples of sheet for toning.
The point is that this coin is NOT a true PR70, anyone looking at the photo would have to believe that, and yet despite that obvious fact the bidding is (apparently) approaching 25 large. I also suspect that if the coin WAS a true PR70, the bidding would not be much higher, wouldn't you agree?
Ergo...
Clearly the bidders are not buying the coin. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's no pretending otherwise.
The good part is that even though somebody's "wasting" their money, somebody else is on the receiving end getting it. The money is probably even staying in the hobby. From that bigger picture, it's not the same as burning a stack of hundreds.
I have to believe that by bidding at the 25 big level, the bidders have either seen the coin or are prepared to send it back if it is not a real 70. I have to assume that it is being bid as if it were a real 70. So, I conclude that the price for this coin and the price of a real 70 would be bid similarly. A return option makes these auctions interesting. I would think PCGS might be sweating, as that is a lot of money to make good if it is a downgrade.
The Other Greg
Let me try to narrow the points of discussion between two good, knowledgeable guys: Heritage sent me the coin to inspect a couple of weeks ago, and I can assure you that the spots are NOT on the holder, but on the coin itself. Ditto for those three splotches you see in the scan – they are on the coin.
I compared it to my PR69 and my copy won easily, but I wouldn’t waste even $1 to have mine submitted for possible upgrade to 70. I think there are a load of other 1963s out there that would top the 70 too; after all a grand total of 63 1963s have been graded PR69DCAM. I’m not good at guessing PCGS grades, but I think if the coin were submitted today it would be lucky to get a 67 and maybe not a DCAM designation.
I can not, under any reasonable circumstances, imagine that this coin was in this condition when PCGS originally graded it. It must have deteriorated in the holder. I wonder when the coin was slabbed – the earliest pop report I have laying around in mid-2000 and it was shown at that time, so it probably was slabbed at least three years ago.
I know a couple of strong Lincoln buyers are laying off the coin because they believe that it is not really PR70DCAM-quality, so it is conceivable to me that if this was a true 70 the bidding might even go higher.
Sorry, Tad, my understanding is that the seller is cashing in his chips and leaving the coin “hobby” so the money will not be recycled! What’s next for him? Who knows. Maybe Pez dispensers, but they're not certified!
BTW, has anyone noted that an upgrade from 69 to 70 is worth one whole registry point? Of course, that may make the difference between being #1 and #2 so I shouldn’t put down one point. Such is life in the registry world.
Gerry
It would suck to be PCGS. Paying out $15,000 for Legends 1913-D MS66 Saint is one thing, but paying out $25,000 for a modern Lincoln cent must really suck (if they have to pay it out).
Unfortunately I can't agree with you that the coin definitely didn't have those problems when slabbed. The spate of PR70 Ikes (90% of which were from one bulk submission) had at least several that were slabbed with problems intact. I have seen and heard of other coins that did too.
I've never heard a reasonable explanation as to how some of these coins got into a PR70 holder. My pet theory is that someone at PCGS ordered new carpet installed and the graders went back to work before the glue fumes cleared.
To PCGS' credit, they have (to the best of my knowledge) taken care of every overgraded PR70 that has been sent in for downgrade. This $25K one would certainly test that to the extreme!
Greg
This Collector does not speak for the rest of us.
I must admit to being shocked. Am I too conservative because I think there is something terribly wrong here? And, I ask myself, is this a prelude to what will happen to all Lincolns as we approach 2009, the 100th anniversary of the Lincoln cent?
I doubt PCGS would be involved with this coin. I'm sure they'd like it to go as low as possible so if (when?) it gets resubmitted, they don't have to pay out a fortune.
It'd be rather funny if they downgraded the coin and only paid the owner a few hundred dollars (it's top value at most).
Russ, NCNE
Don't be sorry. Practically everyone understands that they're buying plastic and at an insane price. Perhaps if the buyer reads this he will wake up and realize how foolish he is?
Perhaps PCGS will grade a dozen more PR70s for this date and knock the price down a few decimal places?
Too bad it wasn't a floor bidder. I wonder what this idiot looked like?
I see the coin has surfaced in Jon Troy's registry set:
Da Link
That's probably what put him to #1....
Spending money to create the finest set is one thing, throwing money at an obviously overgraded coin is stupid!