Just got my grades from my NGC submissions...
FC57Coins
Posts: 9,140 ✭
And I think I got a couple of gifts - but hey it's still the holiday season sorta isn't it? 
On this 1881S you guys had me conviced it was going to come out MS63 - it's coming back MS64PL
Then on this 1884CC, I posted it a while back, and even I thought it would go MS62 tops, it's coming back MS63
Yeah yeah, I know - generosity abounds here - but hey - I've had my share of not so generous gradings as well - actually - I would've thought the 81S would make DPL, it's got great mirrors, but oh well. Oh - I'm also getting back an 1896 in MS65!
Frank
On this 1881S you guys had me conviced it was going to come out MS63 - it's coming back MS64PL
Then on this 1884CC, I posted it a while back, and even I thought it would go MS62 tops, it's coming back MS63
Yeah yeah, I know - generosity abounds here - but hey - I've had my share of not so generous gradings as well - actually - I would've thought the 81S would make DPL, it's got great mirrors, but oh well. Oh - I'm also getting back an 1896 in MS65!
Frank
0
Comments
I was off by the DM still a nice coin
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
Did you break that 84 CC out of a GSA holder?
<< <i>Did you break that 84 CC out of a GSA holder? >>
Yeah - kinda dumb on my part, but to be honest, I didn't think it would grade out at 63 and I was only offered $80-90 for it, so I figured I'd get it graded and stick it with my registry set across the street - oh well - live and learn.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Now the obligatory question -- when did you send them in and under what tier?
Thanks,
Michael <------- still waiting on NGC grades
<< <i>Anytime something is obviously overgraded, we should all hand our heads for a moment and pause, not show enthusiasm. >>
You know Ed - or whatever your name is, first of all, maybe it is overgraded, but then again, 3 professional numismatists looked at these coins and rendered their opinions. Their opinions happened to be higher than what we expected. This is both a lesson in grading for all of us, and a welcome result. You seem to have a knack for bringing out the worst in these postings, and yet, I must admit that some of your views on other matters is insightful. Why don't you just stick your attitude in a drawer and help make this an enjoyable forum - because otherwise, you're just starting to be a run of the mill pain in the a$$.
In my humble opinion.
Frank
<< <i>Anytime something is obviously overgraded, we should all hand our heads for a moment and pause, not show enthusiasm. >>
As I said earlier Frank, nice going!!!! Those Mint state Morgans are nice..... I'll have to check your NGC Registry set, I didn't know you had one..
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I apologize if I came off too harshly. I will be more careful before posting. Ed
I don't know Frank, I have to agree somewhat with Ed on this one. I mean, congratulations for getting good grades, but how come it seems like everytime someone submits coins to NGC they come on this forum and discuss how good they did, and they you always see people complain about their low grades from PCGS? And then, to top it off, people claim NGC is as tough as PCGS is!?. This is kind of silly actually. If you want the better grades, you send to the easier companies. Why not just send to ACG then?
JJacks
Lucy, that's GREAT. When Frank is ready to sell, it sounds like you will pay MS-64 DMPL money for that baggy MS-62 1881-S silver ingot. Maybe there is a good market for overgraded plastic....other slab connoisseurs.
very nice coins
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i> top it off, people claim NGC is as tough as PCGS is!?. >>
Hmmm... this may be the case but I can't think of any posts where I read this, other then NGC scrutinizes the Bell Lines and the Steps on a Nickel harder then PCGs but as for over all grade, I don't know that I ever read that till now. And to say just send them to ACG is foolish, they don't have the respect of NGC.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Lucy, that's GREAT. When Frank is ready to sell, it sounds like you will pay MS-64 DMPL money for that baggy MS-62 1881-S silver ingot. >>
Yeah maybe I might, I have the money, I'll never buy from a person like you.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Second, the issue is not one of over/under grading. The issue is how consistently they grade according to their standards. I also say that because the ANA guidelines for mint state are so vague, one cannot rely upon them to consistently grade mint state coins. Therefore, each company creates a standard based upon ANA guidelines -- and each individual can do the same. And so the issue is then how consistently they apply their standards.
Lastly, the slab is a professional opinion, it is not more than that. It carries more weight than any given person's opinion in the marketplace because the graders at the reputable companies are FAR more experienced in grading and are FAR better than most people. If you accept the slab grade as an opinion then you'll be happy.
Neil
Lucy, there have been numerous posts over the past year where I debated with people who said that NGC is just as tough as PCGS is. I said no they are not - for example NGC has graded many more percent Franklins in MS65, many more percent Ike $s in MS65, etc, etc. PCGS has been shown to be 1/2 point to 1 point tougher then NGC in many cases.
Certainly ACG doesn't have the respect of NGC, but I don't think NGC deserves the respect of PCGS either. The point is this. What is you goal when sending a coin into a company to have it slabbed? To get the proper grade (Even if the truth hurts) on the slab, or to get the best grade that some "Pros" are willing to give you. If you want the proper grade on more often then not, I think you should go with PCGS. If you want to feel better about yourself and get higher grades, you can try one of the many other grading companies out there.
JJacks
That's because NGC has soooo much time on their hands, compared to PCGS, that they really get serious with submissions of veritable pocket change.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>That's because NGC has soooo much time on their hands, compared to PCGS, that they really get serious with submissions of veritable pocket change. >>
As if you really know this to be true.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Mike,
That's an incredibly tactful post; I wish more members would remember that language can also be an art form...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Lucy, I just want to clarify - I am not ANTI-NGC. I think they can be a good company. Sometimes their grading can be right on. I think they do have a tendency to be a bit "nicer" then PCGS. That is OK if that's how they want to grade. Every company can decide their own standards for themselves. The problem is that I think it can mislead people to get higher grades then expected from NGC and then think that those coins would likely cross to PCGS. Most likely, the would not cross to PCGS, and in quite a few cases, probably would not get the same grades at PCGS if they were cracked out and sent to PCGS.
I didn't mean to upset anyone here either, but once again, I must agree with Ed that this forum can be more useful with constructive criticism then with everyone just saying "You're Great. I'm Great"
JJacks
Pardon me if I contribute too much in getting this thread off-topic, but there's a world of difference between constructive criticism and blatant negativism.
If you want to be constructively critical, then you need to remember to be both critical and constructive. And, being critical doesn't just mean spouting one's mouth off with an opinion. In this context, it should be a thoughtful and reasoned criticism that is backed by more than mere opinion or supposition -- unless you openly acknowledge it as such.
Just spouting trash about this or that is, IMO, blatant negativism.
(Please understand that my comments are NOT directed any specific individual.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
On the first point:
<< <i>I have to agree somewhat with Ed on this one. I mean, congratulations for getting good grades, but how come it seems like everytime someone submits coins to NGC they come on this forum and discuss how good they did, and they you always see people complain about their low grades from PCGS? >>
JJacks: I wholeheartedly agree. Here's my point. If you look at the 81S, it is a PL coin. My understanding on PL coins is that there is more allowance on dings and nicks because they show up so prominently due to the surfaces. OK - so let's discuss this topic more at length. I think everyone here will agree that within each grade there is a range from "just made it" to "PQ" - why not discuss these issues and try to learn something about them as opposed to poking fun at someone because they're perceived as not understanding the fine points of the grading game? I think we do tend to bemoan the fact that some of our grades come back lower than we expected. And my guess on that point is that deserve the lower grade. So when we get something a little higher than expected then let's enjoy it for that moment. Another thing that irritates the crap out of me is the frequency with which every time I take slabbed coins, both NGC and PCGS, to a dealer to have evaluated for a possible sale, invariably I get the response, "these have been overgraded, I can't give you more than grade minus X on that one". Well - what ever happened to the deal where NGC and PCGS dealers were supposed to honor the grade on the slab? That's another reason why when - in the rare instances - when I get a grade that's a little higher than I expected, I'm happy - all of us are, eventually someone out there will put us in our place no doubt.
<< <i>the issue is not one of over/under grading. The issue is how consistently they grade according to their standards. I also say that because the ANA guidelines for mint state are so vague, one cannot rely upon them to consistently grade mint state coins. Therefore, each company creates a standard based upon ANA guidelines -- and each individual can do the same. And so the issue is then how consistently they apply their standards. >>
NWCS: There is no doubt that you speak the truth in my eyes. There should not be an MS65 for PCGS, one for NGC, and one for MannyMoeAndJack's grading service. The point should be that a grade should be a grade, no matter who looks at it. Unfortunately we're far from that day in my opinion.
<< <i>Geeez. Didn't mean to upset you. You even said that they were overgraded. Maybe I am just a bit sensitive because of the times, over 10 years ago, that I bought slabs through Coin World advertisers that turned out to be mistakes. Sometimes 1 or 2 point in mint state can be the difference between $100 and $500, or way more. You surely know that. You seem like an honest and caring person, so I am confident that when it came time to sell you would ADD your opinion about those coins to the NGC's opinionm, so that the buyer could make an informed decision. Unless, of course, you are selling to coin shark. In that case, may the best man win. >>
Ed: Apology accepted and please accept my apology for coming off harshly as well. The point I'm trying to make is that I've seen you have very good and insightful opinions on coins, I appreciate and encourage that. You also come off sometimes sarcastic and demeaning to some of us here. I don't mind that you sometimes don't agree with our point of view, I welcome it. But don't get personal and start attacking. There is nothing to be gained by that.
Frank
EVP,
Here is a scenario however. What if a newbe comes on this forum and talks about how he is buying Morgans from a dealer as MS65 and sending them to ACG and they are getting MS65, so he is happy with that dealer and he thinks he is building up a top notch collection, etc.
Isn't it almost our duty to warn the person who is bragging about how well they are doing that something might be up. What if someone here says they just paid only $1000 for a 1921 Peace $ graded by some 3rd party company in MS65? Should we warn them that it may only be an MS64 and only worth $400, or just let them live their fantasy that they bought a coin at half price?
Of course, NGC is a better company then that, but I really don't see anything wrong with says "Congrats, but I wouldn't want that coin then", or "It may be hard to sell if it appears overgraded".
JJacks
FC57Coins,
Just wanted to add that you last post makes alot of sense, and I don't plan to add any more to this thread (getting tired of typing now!)
JJacks
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Isn't it almost our duty to warn the person who is bragging about how well they are doing that something might be up. What if someone here says they just paid only $1000 for a 1921 Peace $ graded by some 3rd party company in MS65? Should we warn them that it may only be an MS64 and only worth $400, or just let them live their fantasy that they bought a coin at half price? >>
JJacks: Indeed I would hope that we would do this - and I would hope that we would do this before the poor collector plunks down $1000 for a $400 coin. I like the fact that people either agree or disagree with posted grades because in my mind this is how we all learn about the subtleties of the hobby. Your posts are more than welcome and your point of view is readily accepted. I think that there IS a disparity between NGC and PCGS. I wish there wasn't - and in the back of my mind I keep hoping that the fact that Rick Montgomery jumped ship will help make the gap - or perceived gap - between PCGS and NGC less noticeable. I've just started learning about Morgans and I'm really enjoying what I'm learning. On a positive note, on Franklins, which I think I've gotten pretty competent on, I think that NGC in the last 6 months to a year, has been getting MUCH MUCH better at grading these on a par with PCGS. We'll see if eventually these two services become more reliable and their standards more consistent. NOW - if i had posted a SEGS holder or God forbid a PCI or ACG one, well then please just shoot me and put me out of my misery
Frank
Doesn't "Mint Luster" have a lot to do with Mint State graded coins? Both of these $'s are loaded with that.
The reason I asked was because I had a $2 1/2 gold piece sent to me aboua week ago..raw. It was pretty well struck and defined but had almost no mint luster left The fields were very clear..but, I was concerned that without mint luster the coin would grade High AU. I sent the coin back because it was represented as BU Choice MS63
Any comments.
Dan
<< <i>Grades schmades, I don't know one way or the other. Just wanted to say that '81-S is sure pretty.
Russ, NCNE >>
WELL said Russ bottom line the coins are beauties and the gigar smoking dog did real well.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
<< <i>The reason I asked was because I had a $2 1/2 gold piece sent to me aboua week ago..raw. It was pretty well struck and defined but had almost no mint luster left The fields were very clear..but, I was concerned that without mint luster the coin would grade High AU. >>
Dan:
Luster I think can be a determining factor on eye appeal and letting you know whether a coin has been circulated or not. Broken luster is a lot of times a surefire way of telling whether a coin has seen some light circulation or not. At the same time I've seen coins with blazing luster which have added so much eye appeal to the coin that it has bumped them up a grade, much like wonderful toning can do the same thing. I would suggest looking at the high points of your coin and using these to determine whether there's been wear on your coin. Better yet - why don't you post a pic and let us have at it
Frank
I do appreciate your comments. When I started collecting as a kid, there were no certified/graded coins..It does seem to me that the dealers I ran accross then were very honest and tried to help me out. I've been burned a couple of times on E-bay and once from a dealer. Each time I just laughed and wondered how I could be so stupid!
Dan
here goes...
it is NOT a good thing for 1 svc. to be "tougher", "more conservative", "tightening standards", "more forgiving", etc etc, as such things imply subjectivity. svc's need to be consistent, so that the ms-63 of today can be expected to be the ms-63 of tomorrow.
it really frightens me when someone says something like "i like pcgs because they are more conservative", or whatever. it implies inconsistency, which, bottom line, is the antithesis of the whole principle of certification.
K S
<< <i>it is NOT a good thing for 1 svc. to be "tougher", "more conservative", "tightening standards", "more forgiving", etc etc, as such things imply subjectivity. svc's need to be consistent, so that the ms-63 of today can be expected to be the ms-63 of tomorrow.
it really frightens me when someone says something like "i like pcgs because they are more conservative", or whatever. it implies inconsistency, which, bottom line, is the antithesis of the whole principle of certification.
>>
Agree with you 1000% Karl.
Frank
Looking for Nationals, Large VF to AU type, 1928 Gold, and WWII Emergency notes. Also a few nice Buffalo Nickels and Morgan Dollars.
Monty...
That 84 is pretty dinged up with the two gashes on the rim. 63 was a gift
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
Some people talk about the fact (?) that PCGS is tougher as if that's somehow a benefit to the collector. But if the price gets adjusted higher for that tougher grading how is that a benefit? Someone else mentioned you pay more because you get more so-called premium for PCGS coins in reality isn't a premium.
What we need is one standard and consistency to that standard. If a company typically undergrades based on that standard the market adjust the pricing accordingly (those not buying plastic). When this happens consistently we tend to forget about the standard and in it's place the impression is generated that the coins accurately grade by other companies are inferior (don't meet the criteria for the grade).
"What we need is one standard and consistency to that standard. If a company typically undergrades based on that standard the market adjust the pricing accordingly (those not buying plastic). When this happens consistently we tend to forget about the standard and in it's place the impression is generated that the coins accurately grade by other companies are inferior (don't meet the criteria for the grade)."
When I started collecting again, I was buying MS63 Raw coins and when I would get them they were cleaned, whizzed, scratched whatever.
Then I began buying Graded coins out of frustration... I bought ANACS, SEGS, PCI, AGC NGC & Pcgs. When I went to upgrade, I couldn't sell the coins graded by anyone else but NGC or PCGS. No one wanted them..at least at anywhere near what I had paid for them.
So, How do you require that consistancy you talk about.
Dan
"So, How do you require that consistancy you talk about."
I require that consistancy but I know I'm not going to get it 100% from any of the grading companies. If you mean how do "I acquire" that consistancy it's by buying/reading the books (PCGS, ANA, Photograde) and then looking at as many holdered coins as possible to understand what the "typical" PCGS MS-65 looks like versus the "typical" NGC MS-65 versus the "typical" ACG MS-65 (just kidding
I think lesson one (or pretty close to it) most newbies need to learn is that regardless of which service's slab a coin happens to reside in the grade on the slab is an opinion and should serve as the starting point when considering market value. The grade assigned by one of the top grading services should serve to get you in the ballpark valuewise but there is plenty of room for play in the ballpark. Lesson two is never, ever pay a substantial one point grade premium until you've gained some grading skill, the higher the premium the more critical this becomes.
<< <i>The reason I asked was because I had a $2 1/2 gold piece sent to me aboua week ago..raw. It was pretty well struck and defined but had almost no mint luster left The fields were very clear..but, I was concerned that without mint luster the coin would grade High AU. I sent the coin back because it was represented as BU Choice MS63 >>
was it an incuse indian? if so, do not expect it to have "luster" as your used to seeing on a morgan, etc. if it was a lib, then yes, it should have luster.
AbesNeighbor,
<< <i>So, How do you require that consistancy you talk about. >>
pmh1nic
alluded to your question, ie, "consistency" as i think you want it is not possible, never has been possible, & never will be
1st of all, ALL grading is an OPINION, which can be questioned, disputed, argued, slanted, biased, you name it. 2d of all, pricing is COMPLETELY SUBJECTIVE, so that some folks would pay more or less for something than someone else. a pricing guide is just that - a GUIDE. so , if you realize that both grades and prices are subjective, you MUST come to realize that there is nothing even close to being "exact" or "consistent" about this process & this hobby.
for your own good, you MUST accept this fact!
so, how do you know whether you've paid too much for a coin? or if the price is too high? or if the grade is wrong?
i mentioned it in another thread, & it is a philosophy which has served me well. it was something i learned long ago from the smartest & wisest coin dealer i ever met. he told me:
"if you like the coin, if you really, really like it, then you cannot pay too much for it"
consider that statement, then let us know what you think!
K S
You've either got to type faster or make your responses more concise
On my monitor, these puppies are HUGE and the bag marks probably appear more conspicuous than they are in life. It's ofen hard to capture the detail of a coin in a photograph without compromising the true "look" of it.
What's your opinion FC57? Do you think the photos emphasize the bag marks?
<< <i>What's your opinion FC57? Do you think the photos emphasize the bag marks? >>
Sorry, I know I'm not Frank but I can say on every scan of a Franklin or Mercury dime that I have shown on these forums the bag marks show up far worse in a enlarged picture then they do when simply looking at the coin. I can never capture the luster or shine of a coin also when I do a scan, I know Frank shoots photos as opposed to a scan....
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>dorkkarl You've either got to type faster or make your responses more concise . I'm one step ahead of you >>
dang-nabbit!
K s
Oh Yeah, Glad you got your coins back Frank.
Lucy Girl, You got any Money for some AG Frankies, all in BDGS plastic, I am thinking of selling out!
Bulldog
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search