Clever Way for PCGS to Make $ AND Do The Right Thing
Singapore
Posts: 578
OK - Heres my plan, see. Based on the issue with PCGS' penchant for very optimistic grading of colonials and early copper (as per my question to David Hall linked here) I think PCGS needs to rethink the approach with these coins or face irrelevance.
My Q, Hall's A
I say go out and hire some bad asss guys from the EAC or the C4 and have them grade all the colonials and early copper starting this afternoon as per traditional standards and using the net system typically employed by these 'experts'. The coins would be slabbed in a new type of PCGS holder, possibly with some kind of C4 or EAC endorsement or notation.
The older more liberally graded PCGS coins could stay in their old holders, though the market would quickly start recognizing the old grades for what they are and translating them into the new ones (this already happens to some extent as knowledgeable people in the fields basically ignore the PCGS grade). I believe PCGS would see a lot of the old coins come back in for a second time (or 3rd or 4th) to be reslabbed in the new holders - so this could be good for PCGS as well. Plus I think you'd see an increase in new submissions from people who heretofore thought the PCGS grading of early copper was simply lousy.
I'm not in the business of finding new ways for PCGS to make money, but I'd rather see them grade these coins accurately as I think 3rd party grading is a good thing for the hobby.
I think the company that does this first - either NGC or PCGS - owns this market.
My Q, Hall's A
I say go out and hire some bad asss guys from the EAC or the C4 and have them grade all the colonials and early copper starting this afternoon as per traditional standards and using the net system typically employed by these 'experts'. The coins would be slabbed in a new type of PCGS holder, possibly with some kind of C4 or EAC endorsement or notation.
The older more liberally graded PCGS coins could stay in their old holders, though the market would quickly start recognizing the old grades for what they are and translating them into the new ones (this already happens to some extent as knowledgeable people in the fields basically ignore the PCGS grade). I believe PCGS would see a lot of the old coins come back in for a second time (or 3rd or 4th) to be reslabbed in the new holders - so this could be good for PCGS as well. Plus I think you'd see an increase in new submissions from people who heretofore thought the PCGS grading of early copper was simply lousy.
I'm not in the business of finding new ways for PCGS to make money, but I'd rather see them grade these coins accurately as I think 3rd party grading is a good thing for the hobby.
I think the company that does this first - either NGC or PCGS - owns this market.
Singapore
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Comments
The way I read DHall's answer, he disagreed with your assesment, and felt he needed to change nothing. PCGS is an 800LB gorilla when it comes to influencing grading standards. My guess is that TDN had it just right. The market will adjust pricing.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I agree that Hall was defending PCGS standards as the correct standards, and I agree to some extent that the market adjusts for PCGS' liberal grades.
I was looking at this as opportunity for PCGS. One need only check the relatively small number of early copper / colonial coins in any grade in the pop reports to see that only a miniscule percentage of collectors and dealers are submitting their coins to PCGS.
Why is that?
David Hall and PCGS can adopt any grading standards they want, but if 2% of the coins get submitted to them then the 800 lb Gorilla may want to rethink the strategy.
If I'm running CU or PCGS, and I'm a public company, and I need to grow my revenue every year, I think I'd try to figure out what areas of the market are 'undersubmitting' and why.
Just a thought.
With regard to tight or loose, in the long run I think it's irrelevant. The only thing that really matters is the quality of the coin compared to the standards in effect upon the date of sale. Since grading standards change ALL THE TIME, reacting to the change is not feasible unless you are preparing to sell your coins.
Are they bad asses or dumb asses? Does anyone go by their standards except them? More people seem to mock them rather than respect them. EAC grading is a joke.
There is so much positive to be said for Colonials, that unlike other series, GRADE plays a secondary role to.
peacockcoins
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
<< <i>Are they bad asses or dumb asses? Does anyone go by their standards except them? More people seem to mock them rather than respect them. EAC grading is a joke. >>
Did you see the photo of the PCGS AU55 NY Excelsior I posted in the 'Most Overgraded' thread?
Tell ya what, a newbie is less likely to get hurt by EAC grading standards than PCGS grading standards. Take a look at singapore's thread on the NY piece.
Another thing about EAC (and BHNC) standards.....they grade by known characteristics of each specific variety and not commercial aspects. It seems to me that the grading services apply Silver Eagle DCAM grading standards to early copper. Then again, I look at singapore's thread on the NY coin and just scratch my head. What does this HUGE swing in grading consistency tell you? Free ALL coins from their slabs. It will be like burning bras back in the 1960's!
100% incorrect. PCGS/NGC stand behind their grade with $$$. What does EAC member stand behind his grade with?
When you buy an EAC XF40 coin, you have no idea of the amount of wear. It could be an XF40 or an MS65 by market standards. When you buy a PCGS XF40, you have a good idea that the coin has wear around the XF40 grade.
Typical EAC:
Coin #1 (PCGS MS60). The EAC member tries to act like a bad ass and show the world how tough he is. It's now a VF coin.
Coin #2 (PCGS AU50). The EAC member tries to act like a bad ass and show the world how tough he is. It's now a VF coin.
Coin #3 (PCGS XF40). The EAC member tries to act like a bad ass and show the world how tough he is. It's now a VF coin.
Coin #4 (PCGS VF20). The EAC member tries to act like a bad ass and show the world how tough he is. It's now a VF coin.
You contact the EAC member to purchase a VF coin. What are you going to get?
Here's another thing to consider: when I buy a coin from an EAC dealer, I take the coin home, put it in my holder, and it's whatever grade I think it is........not someone else's opinion. When you buy a slab, someone else's opinion is permanently sealed in a big, honkin', hard to handle piece of crappy plastic. Yuck!
Possibly. Of course that would be an extreme example. However, in my 4 examples, the EAC guy is going to sell the coin for the market (PCGS) grade the coin is. So he is selling 4 "VF" coins for 4 different prices. So basically, if you can't grade you are at his mercy to be telling you the truth.
when I buy a coin from an EAC dealer, I take the coin home, put it in my holder, and it's whatever grade I think it is........not someone else's opinion. When you buy a slab, someone else's opinion is permanently sealed in a big, honkin', hard to handle piece of crappy plastic. Yuck!
Or, when I buy a coin from an EAC dealer, I take the coin home, put it in my holder, and it's whatever grade I think it is.... but when I go to sell it, the EAC dealer might regrade it 10 points lower and I am screwed out of thousands of dollars. He may also see new problems with the coin, such as cleanings, marks, etc that he "missed" when he sold it to me. When you buy a slab, someone else's opinion is permanently sealed in a big, honkin', hard to handle piece of crappy plastic, so you know that you can sell the coin at that grade sight-unseen to milions of collectors. Easy!
Hmm... call me cynical, but somehow I'm not sure a wealthy, new collector throwing a bunch of money around without knowing what they are doing would fare any better buying raw coins from their friendly neighborhood coin stealer. I mean, dealer.
By the way, that's not an Ike in my pocket. But thanks for noticing, I guess.
g1 their friendly neighborhood coin stealer. I mean, dealer.
I'm a big fan of PCGS and 3rd party grading because it partially eliminates the inherent dealer position of 'when I'm selling you a coin its an AU, when I'm buying that same coin from you its a VF' by setting a defined, accepted (most of the time) standard recognized by both buyer and seller.
Any EAC or other coin not in a holder is subject to whatever description it gets by whoever is selling it. I don't like those odds. Generally, EAC standards are very conservative as we've said, but theres too much risk there for me that as soon as I buy the coin it depreciates much like a new car being driven off the dealer's lot.
What kills me, and what I was attempting to illustrate in the NY Excelsior Most Overgraded post, was that PCGS has taken what should be a good thing and screwed it up but good such that it is more damaging to the hobby than helpful.
Thats a shame, but it is fixable going forward.