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Are PCGS and NGC responsible for the grade on the plastic or not?

eagle7eagle7 Posts: 1,441
in U.S. Coin Forum
image I don't get it. A large part of these threads on this forum are complaints about returning coins which are housed in a PCGS or NGC holder. Im confused. Why are the dealers and auction houses responsible for the grades which PCGS and NGC put on their holders. Why must every coin be bought "on approval" if we have grading services. I will be happy to go back to a total "on approval" market but lets quit paying PCGS and NGC any money. We are giving them our money as a non deductibile charitable donation if we are not going to hold them accountable for their grades. I say again, if you are a serious collector, buy sight seen only. If you want to make a purchase from an acution company or venue such as EBAY on a coin in a PCGS or NGC holder, then you should return the coin to PCGS or NGC if you dont like the grade. That is logical if we are going to continue to pay them for their services.
In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.

Comments

  • barberloverbarberlover Posts: 2,228 ✭✭
    the eye appeal no. the technical surface grade yes. eagle 7, please read the reply i put under your comment on my idea for auction returns post. i think it will clear up for you what some of us are thinking
    , even if you dissagree with it.
    The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
  • tjkilliantjkillian Posts: 5,578 ✭✭✭
    The problem is very simple: Grading is subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. PCGS/NGC/ANACS try their best to standardize grading, but it is an art, not a science. Everyone sees a coin differently.

    Tom
    Tom

  • GilbertGilbert Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭
    I don't get it either. Are you of the feeling that the auctioneer has no responsibility to "properly" describe a lot? Let's use an obviously misrepresented coin that cost, say $10K. Would it be okay for the auction use to accept your money knowing the coin has been misrepresented grade-wise, and leave it up to you to "straighten it out" with the third party company? In most cases, the auctioneer(s) are, or least should be, knowledgeable about the item being auctioned.

    BTW, most folks (collectors) I know, didn't slab 75% of the encapsulated coins they own, so really, they AREN'T paying for the service.
    Gilbert
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,474 ✭
    eagle 7
    There have been many coins returned to the gradeing services for that very reason.There has been submittals for review to both of the major gradeing services.There has been many posts about the results too.
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    In other words, you dont have a return policy!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336 ✭
    Amen, brotha! I am with you to some degree. Grading services, imo, were created as a service for people (wannabe collectors) who are NOT capable of grading their own coins. They just can't do it. I don't mean that in mean way, but it's a fact that some people just can't see the difference between AU-55 and MS-63. Just like some of us cannot draw a straight line or have any other artistic ability. Another example: some of us cannot dress well....we wear brown shoes with a blue suit. Therefore, I think that the grading services should stay in business for the people out there who cannot grade their own coins.

    There are other purposes for grading services, but people don't want to hear about it. It's serves a purpose for those on the dark side who use slabbed mistakes (overgraded, misattributed, etc.) coins to take advantage of new, unexperienced collectors. If you disagree with that, then you are probably guilty of this very act. IT'S A FACT. It happened to me in the beginning.

    Regarding their grading guarantees, I think that they do have guarantees (PCGS, NGC and a few others). I am sure that they do honor their guarantees, too. How many times have we heard of the same coin being submitted 3 or 4 times, each time coming back with a different grade? Can't blame the grading services. They are just giving their opinion on a given day and some are foolish enough to pay for that opinion. The opinions that I offer here today are free.

  • FairlanemanFairlaneman Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tom hit this one on the head. Someones dog is my pristine gem. Responsibility belongs to the buyer. If you buy something you do not like, why blame someone else ? Next time take more time and buy something you are sure will please you. If you insist on buying sight unseen, well you get what you asked for. Buy sight seen only and that will cure your problems. Pretty cut and dried IMO.

    Ken

  • theRiddlertheRiddler Posts: 19
    Riddle me this, Riddle me that, NumisEd opens his mouth to speak.
    But his superior knowledge, we do not seek.
  • barberloverbarberlover Posts: 2,228 ✭✭
    if i'm not mistaken this mornings dissagrement started when eagle 7 read my idea post dealing with online auction returns. for anyone wanting to fully understand my position read my reply to eagle 7 in that post. also read my horror story post. 9you might have to go bac a page to see that one. barber lover
    The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336 ✭
    Riddle me this, Riddle me that, NumisEd opens his mouth to speak.

    Is that an anonymous riddler I see?
    Boy, oh boy....who could it be?
    Allow NumisEd to take a guess.
    All your coins are graded by PCGS!
  • eagle7eagle7 Posts: 1,441
    image I do have a return policy. Standard industry and ANA rules apply. But I am not an auction company. That was what we were discussing. I said that I am happy to work under the notion of "on approval" purchases. I also realize that lots of true collectors do not slab their coins, even breaking out coins from slabs at time. But we weren't discussing that. We were discussing the return of a coin graded by PCGS or NGC to an auction company. The point is this, Heritage's auction rules are clearly stated. No returns on Signature Auctions. Also you have the option of viewing the coin in person with a signature auction. If you buy one and dont look at it, why are you miffed at Heritage. That's what I dont understand.
    In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
  • GilbertGilbert Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭
    Grading services, imo, were created as a service for people (wannabe collectors) who are NOT capable of grading their own coins.

    The driving force behind the establishment of grading services was NOT for collectors. Initially, collectors didn't even have submission privileges. That may be your opinion, but it is not accurate.
    Gilbert
  • eagle7eagle7 Posts: 1,441
    image WallStreetMan if you had read the last four sentences in my first post, you probably would not have felt like insulting me with your post. Maybe your sour year on Wall Street has made you cranky. I sincerely hope that your coming year is better!
    In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
  • RotatedRainbowsRotatedRainbows Posts: 2,085 ✭✭
    The problem is coins are not all alike, you could take 20 1881-S Morgan dollars all graded MS65 by PCGS and if you set them side by side you could have 20 different looking coins. Some will be brighter others will have a better strike others will just have better overall eye appeal. So if the picture is not an exact reproduction of the coin (which they never are) there is no way to accurately asses the coin without seeing it in person so if a dealer wants to take advantage of the sales opportunity presented by the internet they have to have a return privilege. As for grading services they only guarantee the grade of a coin not the eye appeal or a collectors taste in coins.
  • NumisEdNumisEd Posts: 1,336 ✭
    That may be your opinion, but it is not accurate.

    Gilbert, you are correct. My opinion was based on gut feeling, not facts. I readily admit that I know very little about the slabbing industry. I also admit that I LOVE to buy slabs. More specifically, I love buying slabs from dealers who don't know how to grade coins and they are basing their prices on the grade on the slab as compared to the corresponding CDN value. Any freakin' monkey could do that! I first look at the coin, then I see what the grading services "opinion" was. If my grade is higher and I appreciate the beauty of that particular coin, then I buy it. I love paying MS-61 CDN for an MS-63 coin. "Thank you" to all you dealers out there who are not also numismatists.
  • IrishMikeIrishMike Posts: 7,737 ✭✭✭
    Grading standards are not static either. Todays AU58 might be a 65, five years from now.image
  • eagle7eagle7 Posts: 1,441
    image I do really understand what happened to Barberlover. It has happend to me before. I just wanted to get a good discussion going instead of personal threats. At least this discussion is interesting. But just so that Wallstreetman will really understand, my advice here as well as on the other thread is simply this. Look at the coin in person, understand all the rules if you buy in an auction venue or Electronic venue and pay the absolute minimum when there is a no return policy. And on EBAY if no return policy is stated, you had better belive there is not one.
    In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
  • wallstreetmanwallstreetman Posts: 2,938 ✭
    Lets put it this way, the IRS will love me!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I don't get it. A large part of these threads on this forum are complaints about returning coins which are housed in a PCGS or NGC holder. Im confused. Why are the dealers and auction houses responsible for the grades which PCGS and NGC put on their holders. Why must every coin be bought "on approval" if we have grading services. >>

    totally agree w/ your sentiments. buyers want it both ways - a guarantee of a grade, yet if the coin isn't undergraded, they want a cop-out. i say "live by the slab, die by the slab".

    if you buy a ms-78+++ ultra-dmpl super-whizbang arctic-blast-white morgan graded by pcgs that you don't like because of a microscopic "spot" on the back - TOO BAD! the bottom line is that the grade IS the grade (in the spirit of their "guarantee"), & has already taken into the alleged "spot" THAT is the caveat you pay for paying for plastic instead of coins.

    again, the catch-all end-all solution is absurdly simple image1) DO NOT BUY COINS SIGHT-UNSEEN

    K S

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