Can This 1800 Draped Bust Dollar be "Saved"?

Loki

I recently submitted this 1800 Draped Bust Dollar to PCGS as one of my 4 free submissions. They body-bagged it, stating "Environmental Damage". Judging by the pics, do you think this coin is a good candidate for NCG's services, and if so, could their magic touch be enough to get it holdered into a PCGS or NGC slab?

I don't think it looks bad as it has a lot of detail left and doesn't appear to be tooled. Actually, I don't see environmental damage but I don't know what I am looking for other than corrosion or PVC damage, none of which I believe are on this coin. Can someone point out what the environmental damage is on this coin? Thanks.

mbbiker

are those blobs below states of part of the design or is that the damage? sorry for the dumb question but i don't think i've ever seen a dollar this old before.

Placid

Where is the enviromental damage? I see a couple of scratches and it's probably been cleaned but no ed.
Maybe the small pitting on the face and neck?

Many early dollars have problems submit it to anacs or ncs if you want it in a slab. No idea if ncs can "fix it" maybe post across the street they have a ask ncs section.

sinin1

what a nice dollar !!

Environmetal damage? It looks a little off on the obverse around the face possibly - are these small pits caused from being buried at sometime or is it toning?

My 3 dimensional perception doesn't work very well on pictures


Looking in PCGS coin grading and counterfeit detection book it says pg 61

...."When stored for long periods of time with reactive chemicals, the surface of a coin will change from light, pastel-type colors to deep, rich colors to dark, luster-inhibiting colors. There also may be a black buildup that resembles charcoal. When these factors are in place, the coin is labeled environmentally damaged" .....

NumisEd

Loki, I think that PCGS has E.D. (eye damage). That looks like a nice coin. Does it have any luster? I would guess that it does, based on the grade. I would call this an EF-45, grading by variety. Your coin is B-16 (common), and they almost always have a weakly struck right wing on the reverse. Take a look at the detail on the stars on the left side of the obverse. Nice. To answer your question, "no, I don't think this coin needs NCS or anybody elses services". Leave it be. It probably was "messed with" at some point in it's long history, but so have most early dollars. Yours is better than most. Ed.

Loki

mbbiker... Yes those blobs are part of the design, referred to as clouds.

Placid ... I have no idea. That is why I started this thread. If PCGS says it has Environmental damage, surely there must be some somewhere, right? Then again, this free submission must have been graded on 12/26/02 when everyone just loves to head right back to work after a nice Christmas.

sinin1 ... I don't see the pits you are referring to. If you mean the darker toning on the right of the face, then that is just toning.

Ed ... I believe most of the luster is gone, most likely cleaned long ago. That's too bad, otherwise it would be a premium buck imo! Perhaps lack of sufficient luster could cause PCGS to bodybag this as Environmental Damage? I don't know.

Loki

Ed ... Thanks for attributing this for me.

I really want to try to either get it holdered by PCGS or NGC, so if NCS can help it out a little in that direction, that would be great! Otherwise, I will keep it as a raw specimen. I just posted this in the Ask NCS section across the street and am awaiting a response (thanks for that suggestion, Placid). It's pretty cool being able to check out the edge lettering without it being hidden in plastic though.

NumisEd

It does have a hazy, milky kinda look to it. The kind of haze that usually comes from some sort of AT or other "cover-up" technique. Perhaps the coin was cleaned long ago, then toned down at a later date, hence the haze and lack of luster. A coin with that much detail should certainly have some luster. At the very least, you should see some luster around the stars and other protected areas. Any hint of hairlines to evidence the cleaning?

NumisEd

.....also, I've seen coins like this carefully dipped to remove the haze and to reveal the original surfaces. Maybe NCS could help you on this one, even though I don't personally support any 3rd party grading or currating.. Good luck.

It's pretty cool being able to check out the edge lettering without it being hidden in plastic though.

Amen to that! That's a huge pitfall of slabs...can't see the 3rd side of the coin. I have heard of guys cracking out lettered edge bust halves and finding neat errors (e.g. missing letters).

Loki

Nope, I do not see any hairlines at all. There is really no luster to speak of, or if there is, it isn't jumping out at me. There is some reflection but nothing to say for sure if this is true mint luster or just wear. I don't know why someone would want to AT this coin to cover something up, as the details are sharp imo.

leothelyon

They body-bagged it, stating "Environmental Damage".

Well yeeeeaa! 200+ years of it. What could be more natural? Looks great from here! Nice coin.

Leo

dorkkarl

sharpness grade: vf-35, obv. of coin is corroded, i would net-grde as vf-25, value = $1400 retail.

to qualify as xf, (obv) the hairline just above & left of the eyebrow must be well-defined (rev) lower-side of top edge of each wing must be clearly separated from feather detail, shield must be clearly separated from feathers as well, e-pluribus-unum must be entirely present. you can clearly see where the coin falls just shy. for light corrosion such as this, i would deduct 10 points.

not a rare variety, easily attrib'd by the obv. die defect at liberty's throat.

coin cannot be "helped" by ncs or anyone else, nor should it. it is a perfectly nice coin as-is.

why didn't it slab? c'mon! you oughtta know the answer to that - pcgs is infallible in this regard! you see, there are SO MANY of these bust dollars, i mean they are so common with the millions upon millions available to collectors, that it just wouldn't make sense to slab the horribly mangled ones like this one. i mean, you can get a prob-free example at any gas-station or local grocery store, their so common! so why would they slab 1 like this w/ such grotesque, disgusting & humongous problems??? even after 200 years, you should expect every bust dollar to be "perfect"...

why is it that in a case like this, the PLASTICS-ONLY guys never show up to defend pcgs' asinine policy of body-bagging such coins?

oh, gee, of course, it's because nobody would ever collect one like this. pcgs said so.

K S

greghansen

If there is a fellow board member you trust that is going to the FUN show, give the coin to them and have them show it the NCS people at the show to get their input as to whether it is a viable candidate for their services. I know I plan on taking a couple of coins over for them to look at myself. Never used their services, but continue to hear good things about them. I like Skip Fazzari, one of their conservation honcho's and I think he would be a straight shooter about this stuff. Since these guys are in the Tampa area now, I expect most all of them to be at the FUN show. Good luck. Nice coin IMO. My guess is that the ED is due to what they percieve to be pitting on the front of the portrait and the fields in front. Can't tell from the scan whether its really pitting or just tiny spotting.

Singapore

Isn't is possible to wrap this baby in some kind of toning inducing paper (whatever they used to use to wrap old commemoratives), put it on your window sill for 3 years and return to find a nice, naturally toned original looking coin?

MacCoin

I'm sure you could get it netgraded with one of the other companys but unless you selling it on the net or mail order I don't see why you would want to. very nice bust.

hey dorkkarl at any gas-station or local grocery store? pick up one for me next time you gas up.

dorkkarl

hey mac-coin, actually, just got 1 in change at phillips 66 last saturday!

i was trying to make "satire" on pcgs's refusal to grade these coins. point is that on coins of this rarity, it is incredibly stupid to refuse to grade 'em, as if nobody wants 'em. refusal to net-grade is my 2d bigest complaint against pcgs & ngc.

K S

Loki

Greg,
I will be attending the FUN show also. I'll bring it along to see what NCS thinks, athough I suspect Dorkkarl is correct in them not being able to help it out. You know, you (Melbourne) live right next door to me (Palm Bay).

coinrookie

I do not see the damage either but maybe it was cleaned at one time.

prooflike

ACG will give you that MS67 you are looking for

If the luster is gone, it can't be fixed. Even if you tried to tone it a little to hide whatever on the surfaces, it would be a drab, colored coin.

Which is too bad, it has a decent strike and no real big hits or other damage....

Mark

Loki:
For what it's worth, I took a coin to NCS last spring at the Jackonsville ANA show. They looked at it and then said they could do nothing--the cost was $0. So by all means you should take the coin to the FUN show. My guess is that if they perceive that they can do nothing, they will simply hand the coin back to you and not charge you. And, if they can do something, you have the coin safely delivered to them. So, in this case, what do you have to lose?

By the way, that is a really neat coin, ED or no ED!

Mark

EVillageProwler

Loki,

I will be at FUN. PM me before Sunday eve if you want me to look at the coin down there.

BTW, I see potential signs of environmental damage. But, from your picture, the coin still looks nice. (Unoriginal and cleaned, but nice details-wise.) It is, after all, 202 years old...

EVP

Loki

Thanks EVP..

Silverandvinyl PM'ed me after seeing this thread. He saved a picture of a 1796 Quarter graded, thats right, graded P02 by PCGS. It was up for auction June 30, 2002 by TeleTrade. It never sold (hmmm I wonder why?).

BillJones

The coin's surfaces have been stripped completely. My guess is that it was buried in the ground and had some surface corosion removed from it.

I too would show it to NCS and see what they think. My guess is that they will say they can't do anything because all that can be done is to give it some AT, which they will not do. Even AT will not take well to these surfaces.

If NCS says that's it, I'd send it to ANACS for a net grade. Dealers will buy this coin because because even damaged Bust Dollars bring good prices these days.

Bulldog

Loki,

I like it very much. Never had one in my hand. Damn I hate coin collecting. Think I will move on to State Quarters...LOL

Happy New Year

Bulldog