Coin Grading Contest: Enter Here

Singapore · December 30, 2002 9:40AM

Heads

The back is comparable -

What'ya think?

goose3 · December 30, 2002 9:42AM

AU58

relayer · December 30, 2002 9:42AM

I'd grade it MS-62 with a die crack, but then again I don't even know what it is.

ajaan · December 30, 2002 9:43AM

AU

FC57Coins · December 30, 2002 9:43AM

MS63

nwcs · December 30, 2002 9:45AM

There appears to be a fair amount of rub on the coin. The hair, the shoulder braids, and the field in prime focal area. Can't guage luster. Looks like a deep gouge and not a die crack through WASHINGTON. Either that or it is a broken planchet, but I'll assume gouge. I would net this as VF-30. If it is a broken planchet, then AU-50.

Singapore · December 30, 2002 9:47AM

Its an undated Washington Liberty and Security Penny circa 1795.

I'll post the actual PCGS grade in a bit.

tjkillian · December 30, 2002 9:53AM

It clearly looks RED to me. That being the case, MS-63???

Tom

banknote1 · December 30, 2002 9:58AM

MS66 red???

dorkkarl · December 30, 2002 10:02AM

ms-62 rb

terrific coin, btw. not difficult in br. unc, but unc w/ red, very nice, dude, very nice....

K S

tradedollarnut · December 30, 2002 10:05AM

NGC 65R, PCGS 64R

Singapore · December 30, 2002 10:07AM

PCGS called it an MS64RD (the pnly full red coin of its type certified to date) despite the evidence of wicked rubbing on the high points.

I'd say its got to be an AU with suspiciously red color, likely dipped in the last 20 years.

That line was evidently deemed a planchet crack, not eivdence of some colonial era creep attacking it with one of those giant weed cutters. Did they have those back then?

KlectorKid · December 30, 2002 10:09AM

XF looks rb

prooflike · December 30, 2002 10:15AM

What's the prize -- you did mention contest??

tradedollarnut · December 30, 2002 10:23AM

One man's "wicked rubbing" equals another man's "cabinet friction". The fields are pristine and red. The net grade for the cabinet friction is 64. NGC will net grade less for the rub and thus the 65.

fcloud · December 30, 2002 10:29AM

If it just came back, I'd say a 58, If it was in an older holder 62.
Man, have they been tough lately!

Singapore · December 30, 2002 11:55AM

TradeDollarNut -

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about colonials and colonial grading, but this coin evidences extremely heavy cabinet friction - the heaviest I think I've ever seen on a red copper coin.

I have a number of other PCGS64RD colonials which have no friction - either my coins are all 66s and 67s, or this ones at best a 2.

I'll post pictures of mine as soon as they are photoed.

7741 · December 30, 2002 12:12PM

AU 50

tradedollarnut · December 30, 2002 12:17PM

Actually, I know NOTHING about colonial grading. This is the first I've ever tried to grade. But I know how they think and I just took the 5 second look like they would without the glass and gave it my best shot.

NumisEd · December 30, 2002 12:28PM

Singapore, what a beautiful coin! I am jealous. Maybe I am mistaken, but it sounds like you don't particularly like the coin. I don't care what PCGS or anyone grades the coin. If you have seen as many of these as I have, you would know that this is RARE in this state of preservation. I would grade the coin MS-beautiful, as one cannot assign a modern era grade to a coin (really a token) of this significance. The coin was handled at some point, which is why the high points are of a different color, but I doubt that it's rub. Even so, by comparison it's a choice unc. Again, congratulations and please, please enjoy it for what it is.

PS - the die crack is VERY interesting. Your coin is a late die state and I have only seen a few over the years.

doops · December 30, 2002 4:29PM

pr53

JR · December 30, 2002 5:24PM

MS-61

doops · December 30, 2002 5:34PM

woops ! i was grading the 56 fleagle.
by the way, what's the grade on it ?

Cam40 · December 30, 2002 6:40PM

its.....63 Red.Nice die-crack too.

darktone · December 30, 2002 8:36PM

Singapore, that's one nice coin! I was thinking ms63 red before I saw the grade. I don't know anything about grading these coins so I just graded it like I would an early large cent. Just out of curiosity are there any known counterfiets of these coins? mike

Singapore · December 30, 2002 8:49PM

All -

I don't own this coin - its actually in the upcoming Superior auction as the aforementioned MS64RD.

As we've discusd before, I guess grading standards for colonials are just different at PCGS, as, for example, I would think they would never accept a Morgan or even a Large Cent with friction like this as a mint state coin. Or am I mistaken? Or does it matter?

While a nice 64RD example of this coin Washington piece would be of great interest to me, the combination of the friction, of the not-so-small spots, the planchet crack, the slightly suspect uniformity of the color, etc. make this not as desireable as some of the RBs I've seen, so I won't be bidding.

Thank you all for the inputs.

silverandvinyl · December 30, 2002 8:56PM

Pcgs..MS61...Ngc...MS64

dorkkarl · December 30, 2002 9:46PM

<< <i>PCGS called it an MS64RD >>

i said it before in another thread, pcgs is FAR too generous w/ grading colonials. w/ that much high-poing discoloration, the coin CANNOT grade above ms-62. & it sure as he11 CANNOT be "red"!

the die-crack occurs on a low % of these, but is not rare in my exp. it is mint-made & should not affect the grade at all.

it doesn;t look like rub, more like a weak strike , which again is why the coin CANNOT be "choice" or "very-choice" (ms-64)

i will continue to harp on this: DO NOT BUY CERTIFIED COLONIALS SIGHT-UNSEEN. you will be sorry!

again, why aren't the PCGS-ONLY folks chiming in on this???

K S

Singapore · December 30, 2002 10:08PM

dorkkarl -

I agree with you re the buying PCGS colonials sight unseen, but I disagree with your assessment of the rub vs weak strike.

If it was purely weak strike as you suggest, and you believe the color is orginal, then the flat high points would be red. But they aren't. Looks to me like a clear indication of friction on the high points that toned the red down to brown.

I guess its possible it could be friction AND a weak strike, but in my experience these coins generally are pretty well struck - far better than this one.

I really think the red color is suspect as well -

tradedollarnut · December 30, 2002 10:19PM

it doesn;t look like rub, more like a weak strike , which again is why the coin CANNOT be "choice" or "very-choice" (ms-64)

So colonials, made in suspect conditions, are treated more harshly than even modern coinage? A slight weak strike will perhaps limit the grade of a modern, or a classic, but not to below choice or very choice - perhaps below superb gem! A weak strike on the very highest point will NOT limit a coin below very choice. Cabinet friction will NOT limit a coin below very choice. Thems the rules of the game.

With regards to color, PCGS is known to miss that aspect - just ask Shylock!

Trime · December 30, 2002 10:25PM

Last summer at Colorado Springs I had a chance to discus grading of early American coppers with both the "Copperheads" and modern grading services. It was clear that they were in different worlds. While, I know relatively little about Colonials and their grading I would have guessed that this is technically an AU and market graded as a MS. It is in my opinion really difficult to judge color issues from scans since what you see with coin in hand can be easily changed by lighting and other reproduction factors.
Never the less, it is a very nice coin to my eye and one that I would be pleased to add friction to in my cabinet.

NumisEd · December 30, 2002 10:34PM

Singapore, if you like the darn coin, then just buy it. Who cares what PCGS, or any other 3rd party, says? It just their opinion which has been extensively proven to change like the weather. Simply close your eyes, take a deeeeep breath and focus on what a coin like the nice Washington piece is worth to you. I would guess $3500 is where it will go. Way out of my league!

Why are most of the people on the forum so dependent on what PCGS or NGC says? Don't you have a mind of your own? If I bought that Washingon piece it would be outta the plastic as soon as I found a pair of pliars.

Dog97 · December 30, 2002 10:42PM

I took the possible rub for discoloration and gave it R&B and looking at it like a normal cent gave it 64 so I would have said 64 R&R but that's just a guess because I know much about grading colonials.
Never mind what NumisEd said, thanks for giving us something to look at besides another toned Morgan or JFK!

NumisEd · December 30, 2002 10:46PM

Never mind what NumisEd said, thanks for giving us something to look at besides another toned Morgan or JFK

Huh?

I would have said 64 R&R

Perhaps Dog97 needs some "R&R"?

Dog97 · December 30, 2002 11:06PM

Ruff Ruff

Singapore · December 31, 2002 12:17AM

NumisEd -

I posted the pick to have a discussion about the coin - not to seek anyone's approval or to validate the PCGS grade.

I didn't intend to bid when I saw the auction catalog and I don't intend to bid now.

But I bet your estimate is within $100 either way.

NumisEd · December 31, 2002 2:50AM

I posted the pick to have a discussion about the coin

Opps! Sorry Singapore. I jumped the gun. Thanks for sharing the images and the topic. Ed

Coin Grading Contest: Enter Here

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