What should I do? (Re: issue with trimmed card in a trade)

anjcollection

Here's the scenario:

1. Made a trade with a fellow member on the board for a pretty nice HOF rookie card (raw) in what looked like NRMT condition from the scans (book value of the card was around $1000)
2. Sent in the card to PSA for grading. Came back "evid of trimming". Sent in the card to Beckett, same result (I was surprised by this, but I guess they're getting better too). So now I'm out over $100 in grading and shipping fees.
3. Emailed the original seller and he just offered to give me back part of the money I sent in trade (he has since done so)

I was hoping for a full refund. Am I asking too much? Of course, I was ready to eat my loss since it's my fault for going along with the deal and a deal is a deal.

Secondly, what should I do now? Send it into PRO and then just get rid of it on ebay?

I normally don't do deals for raw cards (and now will obviously never do it again). However, the member has a reputable rating on ebay and was and still is pretty friendly. I just thought I'd post this to this board since I don't really check the others and most of the people I've gotten to know are from this board.

Thanks for your feedback.

waitilltheytrytosell

Every time you buy a raw card of significant value from anybody, especially from somebody who obviously knows something about grading/value, you have to ask yourself why the card isn't in a holder. You might want to ask the seller this too. You will be amused with some seller's reasons. If your intent is to get it PSA graded, then make able to get it in a PSA holder part of the deal. You were getting what you thought was a NM card, priced at a NM level. You were not told you were getting a trimmed card. I would push the guy for a complete reversal of the trade, or if that's not possible, get something else of equal value. Equal value to NM at 1000, not trimmed and 100.

RedHeart54

Take whatever he's offering. You might as well get as much as you can back. I agree that buying raw vintage is very risky these days and that anything worth its salt should be graded. A lot of us (me certainly included) bought a lot of (what appeared to be) nr-mt/mt vintage before grading got really popular, and thus, ended up eating a lot of money when those cards came back with "evidence of trimming" or other alterations. In the end, that's why grading, despite its subjectivity, is positive for the hobby.

waitilltheytrytosell

I would like to add that sending it to PRO and getting a 9 or 10 grade on it and then sticking it to someone on Ebay isn't an honorable solution. These problem cards need to find their way back to the source, and the source has to deal with making it right. I'd say it's highly likely that your seller/trader knew the card had a problem. He had no problem sticking you with the card, get a full refund from him, and let him find somebody else to stick it to. Did you get any cards from the guy that were graded? If you did, verify the serial numbers around what you got from him and maybe if you're real lucky, your well traveled card might just pop up.

Tipem

I would have to agree with waitilltheytrytosell.

If this guy is a reputable guy AND has a conscience,HE should completely reverse the trade or at least make it right with you.I had a deal with almost the same scenario and the seller made good on the card.The guy should put himself in your shoes and try to visualize how he would feel knowing that he traded for a trimmed card.

I also think that even thinking about sending the card to another grading company and then dumping it on E-Bay is a BAD idea.Then you place someone else in the same position as you are in.You already know how that feels.

Remember the old addage:Whatever goes around, comes around.

dude

I guess "waittil" and I are on the same wavelength tonight. I agree with him on all points and will only add the Pro doesn't deserve a penny and should be run out of business. Sending them a card only helps that sorry company stay afloat.

The only other thing that I'd be curious to know is if the card was undersized. I've heard Beckett will reject cards as trimmed if the card goes below the minimum size requirements, but miss a lot of trimmed cards (determined trimmed by PSA) if they are within the acceptable tolerances.

Vargha

Hold on a sec. Whatever the $ value was that was attached to the card needs to be made whole, regardless of intent. That is how I have always dealt with such issues and I demand the same from the people I do business with. I have never had a reputable dealer or collector not be completely honorable about this. Maybe I misunderstood the post, but full value (not partial payment) is what is due back to you. The trader/seller is under no obligation, however to refund the grading fees.

acowa

Trade reversal seems like the fair thing to do...I would settle for nothing less. What in the heck can you do with a trimmed card anyways? If the other party insists on you keeping the card...the value is equal to a Poor-Fair condition card and he should refund the difference. Trimmed cards do have a value and have been sold on EBAY as such. Hopefully, since the trader is a board member...he will do the right thing. If he doesn't...the humiliation he would have in being identified publicly on the board would be worth more than the money.

Regards, (and good luck)


Alan

robstar

Anything short of complete trade reversal is unacceptable.

Please keep us updated with how this works out.


Rob...

1954

I don't know who this dealer is, but he knew that it was trimmed or he would have graded it. I agree with everyone on the board, he should break the deal and start a new one. We all have been in the same situation and it is no fun. At least the dealer is willing to work with you.
I think it is a great idea to get the card graded by PRO. If every card that was trimmed was in a PRO holder it would help all of us buyers more aware. Have you seen the PRO graded cards on Ebay by TEddysballgame? It is not even funny how badly these are cut.

1954

mohiba

Hey Andy, is this the card that made you decide to "get out of the graded card business" for a while? Man, if so, hate to see a good collector who also is a good guy make that decision based on some guy stickin it to you. He might be reputable, so on so forth, but bottom line, this is the type of situation where he makes his reutation. Partial reimbusement, sounds like a bunch of bull----, the guy ought to make it right by refunding the money and if it were me, I'd even help out with some money for the grading fees. Call me crazy, but I'm under the impression the messgae boards exist, learn more about the hobby and deal with people who have a certain amount of integrity that one can place some faith in, to complete a deal above board.

Andy, from our dealings together, I know your a nice guy, but I think this individual is taking advantage of your generosity. As far as sending it to one of the scab garding companies, I wouldn't do it for two of the reasons already mentioned. Quoting Dude "Pro doesn't deserve a penny and should be run out of business", excellent point! Most importantly, per Tipem "Whatever goes around, comes around".

Happy New Year to everyone!
Brian

mohiba

Hey 1954, is that the same Cleaver, that if you win one of his PRO auctions he'll include a PSA card of his choice. If so, this guy always kills me when I see he has something up..........I mean duhhhhhhh, why would you promote PSA with your glorious PRO auction? Sucker born everyday, as they say.
Brian

koby

Did you ever resolve this problem?

anjcollection

Alright, finally got an update worth posting.

I have not sent this thread to the member yet (actually, I realized, he's not really on the boards, at least I don't think, but he definitely has a high end topps set registered on the registry) nor have I tried to contact him. Reason:

Before I posted my message, I had already sent the card to PRO in desperation (sorry guys) I feel the same as Bruce and will most likely follow his course of action (see his thread and website on his experiment with PRO. It's pretty cool.)

Anyways, I just got the card back from PRO and needless to say, it got a very, very high grade. If it were in the same grade in a PSA holder, I could sell it and take the next few months off and play golf, solid... ahh, I digress.


And to answer your question Brian, yeah, this was the incident that caused me to get out of the PSA 'game'. I'm used to collecting pretty high end cards, but I've now all but gotten rid of most of my highend cards. Rick at MINTState has my entire 1950 Bowman PSA 8 collection, Chris at Superior has a few of the high end singles I had mentioned on previous posts to the board, and the only thing of 'value' SMR-wise is my subset of PSA 9 1959 Topps thrills cards (#461-470). I'm thinking of offering it up to board members before I seek a way to sell it (most likely eBay for these). It's nice though, I'm back to collecting for the fun of it and not so concerned about SMR value and upgrading cards. I was buying the holder for a while (esp. when I was trying to collect a run of 1950 Bowman PSA 7s and 8s). I was really happy to sell those to fellow board members and am even happier with my EX condition ones I have left

I believe this member of the registry fully knew that the card was tampered with. In his quest to move up the rankings, he further obtained 2 very high end cards from me to add to his collection... I don't think he wanted to give them back in a refund. Oh well, not to worry, I'm actually fine with it.

My only problem is, I'd want to let people know who he is, just in case it happens again. I'd also want to let people know which card it is, but I figured, anyone on these boards isn't gonna buy a PRO graded card anyways.

Sorry for the long post. Though I'd air out my comments one last time. Any feedback would be appreciated!

waitilltheytrytosell

anj - And why exactly do you "blame" PSA for this and "punish" yourself by dumping your cards and interest in PSA. What happened to you happened to hundreds of people before professional grading. They didn't find out about it though after buying just one card. They too thought they were collecting for fun, but when it came time to sell, many people lost a whole lot more money than you did. They lost money because they too were sold bad cards. What happened to you happens far less these days. There are good grading companies keeping everybody honest. I'd much rather see novice collectors buying cards graded by good grading companies, rather than turned loose in the jungle of raw card dealing. You have to know so much about the evils of doctoring that collecting stops being fun.

anjcollection

waittil...

I don't think I'm necessarily 'punishing' PSA and I'm not at all dissatisfied with them. I should clarify by saying that I'm getting out of the 'high end' PSA 'game'. I'll still collect a few things (my low end T206s and PSA 5 1950 Bowman HOFers) so I'm definitely a 'backer of PSA'. However, since this was a high end deal, I've finally gotten tired of dealing with dishonest people and would rather not be weighed down by the pursuit of 'mint' cards, when I'm just as happy with EX copies. (I loved getting PSA 8 or 9 cards, but after a while, I left like I needed to sell them to get my money back - and sometimes make a profit from it).

My friends who don't collect marvel at this whole PSA grading business. I once had a PSA 7, 8, and 9 version of Mays' Catch (1959 T Thrills #464). I showed them to a friend and he couldn't tell the difference. He was even more surprised when I told him the difference in prices!

And finally, I'm not really punishing myself over this. Just allowing myself to be more content with what I have and not necessarily seek to upgrade all my sets (and I don't think that's a bad thing to do either, I'm just not going to do so myself). I still really enjoy collecting and have really enjoyed meeting some of you who have emailed me and traded with me as well!

Tipem

Hi Andy,

I think that I speak for most of the guys on this board that you still should e-mail this guy and make him aware of this thread.He should at least reply to you or you should post his name.A guy like this that trades high dollar cards that are trimmed or altered is a potential problem to anyone that collects.He is just like a thief that you do not prosecute.Until he has been exposed,he will continue to do this again.Maybe if he reads this thread,he will do the right thing and if he does not,then he deserves to be in the limelight.I know that this is a difficult thing to do but it may prevent another from being in the same situation as yourself.If this guy claims ignorance on the card,just be graceful and let him know that the whole deal should be undone.If that ocurrs,let everyone know that this guy did the right thing and let him know that you updated us on the board.

It is a painful situation that this guy has put you in a position of having to deal with something that makes you uncomfortable.My wife and I had to prosecute a"close" employee that we found out had embezzled from us,so I know what you are going through.She had done this several times before and ,just maybe,had she been called on this before,we would have been spared a lot of grief and money.It's a hard thing to do but it needs to be done!!


Good Luck,

Vic

koby

The guy definitely ripped you off. Partial compensation?? What kind of BULL**** is that???

(1) If this guy has a legitimate business, you should report him to the Better Business Bureau.

(2) If this guy has an Ebay hande, let the board know, so no one else has to deal with such scum.

There is no question that the jerk should reimburse you in full!!!