Breen has wrong mintage?

vega1

Hey everybody, get out the whiteout and fix your Breen Encyclopedia...

I picked up an 1870 half dime (haven't seen it yet, I hope its as good as the scan), anyway I noticed a diference in the Red Book and Breen mintage figures. Breen lists it as 353,600, the Red Book lists it as 536,000. I thought if one was wrong it would be the Red Book, but coinfacts.com lists it as 535,000. I assume this means Breen's Encyclopedia of US Coins is wrong(?). Anyone know for sure?

Thanks

coppercoins

I would more count on Breen being wrong.

1. A single person writing a book versus a corporation that has been around for a lot longer.
2. A single book originally printed in 1974 then re-printed to death versus a new edition with revisions each year for 50 years plus.
3. Both already contain a number of inconsistencies and incorrect statements and figures, but Breen's book probably contains many more...due to the two reasons mentioned above along with the fact that the Breen book contains many more words and figures than the Red Book...much more to mess up.

It really amazes me how many people still religiously follow that way out of date book. It has caused much confusion in more recent years than it has done good, and would be better put to rest. The Lincoln cent area is the only part of that book I have read to any great extent, and MANY listings are misleading and/or wrong considering what is known now about the minting process versus what the author claimed to know then. A number of sellers on eBay and other places are taking advantage of the out of date information in that book selling so-called varieties listed by Breen that have since been disproven for way above their fair market value as the normal coins they are.

vega1

Oh

I didn't know that the Breen Encyclopedia was known for being inaccurate. I thought that since I get a hernia every time I pick it up I could trust it.

Thats too bad, I've learned alot from that book... well I thought I did anyway.

coppercoins

You needn't worry, many generalist collectors and dealers still worship that book, and in their estimation you can't go wrong with it. I personally can't find it within myself to purchase a copy of my own - not worth the money, not even at wholesale...each is to his/her own.

As a footnote, there are still plenty of good listings, decent photos, and a lot of information that created much of the foundation for the specialists of today...I just have a problem with people using a history book to predicate the modern world.

GDJMSP

Breen made several mistakes in his books - but they were based on information known at the time. Since that time new information has come to light. This is true of almost any book ever written.

However that does not mean that the book or books should be discounted for the valuable information they do contain. Like anything else - the subject of numismatics is an ongoing process. Things change. But in order to truly become knowledgable one must study all the information - old & new.

lathmach

There's a lot of mistakes in the Breen book.
In spite of that, it's still the best single book on US coins around.

Ray

wingedliberty

I threw out my Breen encyclopedia when I found out that he was convicted of pedophylia for raping
three young boys. He died in prison and hopefully now is burning to a crisp in hell. For those who
are not aware of this, it was published in Coin World and Numismatic News.


Happy holidays,
Brian.

GDJMSP

Your choice of course about throwing out the book. And I perfectly understand your reason. But if you truly feel that way - then you better throw away part or most of your coin collection. That is if it contains any gold or silver coins.

Any gold & silver has been used & reused time & time again throughout history. And at some point in time - it is almost a certainty that any given gram of the metals was used finance some horrible crime at some point in history. Think about it.

wingedliberty

I don't see how you can compare a precious metal to a pedophyle.

Brian.

wingedliberty

The precious metal is not guilty of crime, its the people who used it for criminal enterprise.
Your comparison makes no sense.


Brian.

wingedliberty

I am almost certain that the royalties from the Breen book go to his estate. Why would I support
a pedophyle's estate?


Brian.

GDJMSP

You're absolutely correct - it's not the metals fault. But it's not the books fault either - or the vast amount of knowledge that is contained within it. But the logic follows from one to the other.

I was not knocking your decision in any way - it is your personal choice to make. I was merely trying to point out that you do yourself far more damage by throwing away a valuable resource for important information.

I too detest Breen for his crimes. As a man - he was a despicable animal & he deserved his fate.

As a numismatist he was a giant.

But you have to choose what is right for you - and no one can fault you for it - least of all me. And that was not my intention. If you took it that way - I apologize.

coppercoins

<< <i>However that does not mean that the book or books should be discounted for the valuable information they do contain. Like anything else - the subject of numismatics is an ongoing process. Things change. But in order to truly become knowledgable one must study all the information - old & new. >>



I couldn't agree more, but the issue here is that a lot of people still treat Breen's book like it IS current information, which is out right wrong. There are some of his listings that are still valid, but more so than not they have either been disproven or are now seen by those in the know as "lacking merit".



<< <i>In spite of that, it's still the best single book on US coins around. >>



A true statement, but a very sad statement. Hundreds of books out there, yet nobody has ever tried to duplicate his efforts with more modern, correct listings. I do honor what he did when he did it, but it is quite inadequate to assume everything is correct in a book that is nearly 30 years old - my point.

To summize, the book is a good one for numismatic history and study - but it is still being used as a "current" reference guide, which is not right. MANY people are being burned on eBay and other online auction sites because people are still using his listings to sell what are now disproven as common coins. Case in point, the 1958 over 7 "overdate" Lincoln cents...they simply don't exist, although they are listed in Breen's book. Most 1958 Lincoln cents exhibit a die gouge under the 8 that has an angle somewhat mimmicking a 7, but anyone who knows the minting process well would know that an overdate on a 1958 cent would be impossible. It has been disproven, and many versed Lincoln cent afficionados (John Wexler, Ken Potter, Gary Wagnon, James Wiles) agree that the "overdate" does not exist....yet people are still getting $5-$25 each for them on eBay because the Breen Encyclopedia says they exist. People are buying a three cent coin for thousands of times its value based on the words of a 30 year old book.

kobrakoins

In my Whittman H10c it list the 1864 as 470. The Red book says it has 12,470.

GDJMSP

Must agree coppercoins. We can only hope that through discussion others will be made aware. Far too few collectors actually study enough in order to keep up with current information. I doubt that will ever change. But in the hope that knowledge can be increased - it never hurts to share with others what we know - all of us.

greghansen

Well I haven't thrown out my Breen's yet, but I use it as a starting point for research rather than an ending point. Bought mine before I learned of his criminal background. If I had learned of his felonious felandering (sic) earlier, I doubt that I would have bought the book. I'm suprised he hasn't been more ostracized by the collecting community as a whole. Many still hold his memory in extremely high esteem. I can't conveniently seperate the mans morals from his research contributions. Especially since he apparently used his collecting activities to gain access to victims to further his criminal intentions.

coppercoins

I can respect the opinions, morals, decisions of those who cannot connect themselves at all with the information in the book because of the author, but I am personally not this way. I take a product for what it is, not for who made it. Who knows what kind of murderer, child molestor, etc. made the license plate on your car...unfortunately this world is full enough of crime, you can't really separate yourself completely from it.

I also understand (before anyone has a chance to rebut my statement) that a connection between a penal worker making a license plate and an author writing a book are indeed two completely different things - perhaps my example is a bit off, but there are also prisoners worldwide turning out all sorts of articles, journals, websites, and other "works" that people read not knowing of their past or their true state of mind.

While it may be unfortunate that someone related to Walter Breen probably still gains from the sale of the books, the work is indeed the best book available that covers all series of coins (although not completely researched and way out of date). A collector can choose to get it or not to. I chose not to, because by the time I had the money to purchase one, I was lucky enough to have had a chance to become educated otherwise along with a chance to see the book before purchase, and I figured from what I saw that it was already behind my level of understanding of what I collect. No sense in buying a $75-$100 reference for a few pages of it that contain mostly incorrect entries.

Furthermore, I really don't like his listing system. It doesn't in any way describe the coin listed. Breen #2381 doesn't even tell me the denomination of the coin, much less what the variety listed is. It's a lot like the FS system in that respect...both are inherently flawed by design.