Crackout Lesson Learned (The Hard Way)

Loki

I sent in my first 4 free submissions and had my results obtained yesterday. I will just concentrate on one coin; a 1902 $2 1/2 Liberty Gold Piece, previously graded PCGS MS62.

I purchased this gold piece from LordMarcovan thru eBay. It was slabbed PCGS MS62 and LordM stated that he thought it would have a pretty good chance at an upgrade. After viewing this coin thorougly, I also came to the same conclusion, so I decided to roll the dice and submit this coin raw. Well riddle me this? How does a slabbed PCGS MS62 obtain enough rub in the holder to come back as an AU58????? I will post some pics later tonight so you can judge for yourselves if this coin merited an AU58 grade, especially if it was previously a PCGS MS62.

My Lesson Learned: Never crack out a PCGS MS graded coin as the holder allegedly imparts enough rub to the coin to bring the grade down to the AU level.

wayneme

Ouch

tradedollarnut

There are thousands upon thousands of AU 61, 62 and 63's out there and it's also the least consistent part of the slabbing game. When you crack out a lower MS coin that looks fantastic, you are always taking the chance that it has rub or questionable toning that was net graded.

greghansen

Damn, thats rude. I've never gotten into the crack out game. Maybe I should try it. Getting tired of losing money in the market. I need a new gig to lose money. This could be it.

fcloud

I cracked out a ANACS Mercury 1936 MS64FB for one of my free submissions, it was the only coin in the batch in which I was not disappointed. It came back MS65FB. On the same invoice I had a solid 1929 unc Mec, it came back AU55!!! The coin showed no rub on any of the high spots, they felt there was a rub on a low spot???? I feel your pain, but at least my coins weren't worth much! Customer Service told me I should use this as a learning tool, and suggested I go to the ANA's grading school!

Strat

TDN, are you alluding to the AU62 grade???

Loki

The best I can do tonight is a previous scan of the coin. It was a rather rude "Welcome to PCGS, new collector. Trust our certified slabs and consistent grading." message to me though. Yea, right.
I will most likely just submit my next 4 submissions raw and be done with PCGS altogether. Do you think the IRS will count my $189 platinum membership as a capital loss since I've lost some money with the free submission? I guess it wasn't a total loss though; I did get an PCGS MS68 Silver Eagle out of the deal... or is it really an AU58 in disquise...?
   

Placid

I had a ms62 pcgs crackout downgrade to au58. I wasn't very happy either.
I was just going to get it reholdered but I didn't have enough forms.

BigD5

BABBBOOOOMMMMM!!!!!!!
That was Tradedollarnut putting the hammer down. Well said.
Those au/58-ms/62 grades, especially in gold, are soooo subjective. Second in subjectivity to the modern 67-70 grades flying around.

roadrunner

A large % of AU58-MS63 coins all have high point rub and friction.
It's really no surprise since most of these probably circulated for a while. Even many MS64-65 coins could have circulated for a short period.

roadrunner

michael

i am sorry to hear about that myself i have seen many au 58 coins brfore 1910 silver and gold that to me are really nice ms 62/61 coins with great eye appeal!!!! and i cant even being to see why they are in 58 holders? maybe it is me? also i havr seen many ms 61 62 coins that for me i would not crack out as there looks to be some slight rub everso infestimental rub i would call them au 58!!

i guess it is difficult with the art of grading and the luck of the draw with the art of grading

with a coin like yours only given a look see of a few seconds and two graders calling it 62 with two graders calling it 58 and the finalizer erring on the side of caution of 58

but who knows? anyways sorry to hear of it i would love to see this coin in person

sincerely michael

for me i would return the original tag and the coin in the au 58 holder to ron howard at pcgs but

call first and explain your case and see waht happens! up to you but keep me informned i would like to know what you deside to do

sincerely michael

Whitewashqtr

I would re-submit it. Although I have never cracked out a coin (I thought about it), I have read on these forums that the black hole grade of AU-58 will regrade the second time. PCGS just gets another grading fee to do it. You might be surprised with the result.

Good Luck!! Happy New Year!!

WWQ

Outhaul

That's exactly the reason I am, and will always be a "Crack-out Chicken"

Sorry about that, loki.

Cheers,

Bob

fcloud

Loki,

I agree with Whitewashqtr Call Customer Service. At the very least they will discuss the issue with you. You may not get the response you want, but they at least will discuss the issue. Who knows, maybe they will make the same suggestions to you that they made to me.

relayer

It was uncirculated, but once you cracked it out it was in circulation.

PCGS was able to detect that. Damn they're good.

darktone

Loki, sorry to hear about your coin being down graded to AU. I have had the same thing happen in the past. In my gold coin experience I have found several different kinds of coins certified as being MS60-62. There is the original looking coin graded this way because of surface marks alone and then there is the coin that looks much better but is net graded (up or down) to achieve this grade. mike

itsnotjustme

Hmmm. I think I almost bought this coin from LM. I did almost buy that coin... I was high bidder but just below the reserve. He PM'd me with an offer for if it did not sell, then a bidder (must have been you) met the reserve.

Tough go on that down grade. I've never cracked any coins out before sending them for a re-look.

Brian

Loki

Brian, trust me. When LordM sees this outcome he'll do a flip along with his crazy cat!
I will give them a call to see what they say about it but I won't loose any sleep over it because I'm not a registry set collector lol. No, actually I played the pass line, rolled the dice, and they came up craps. I can take this but I have absolutely no faith in their current grading system. It's too bad they didn't change the look of the slabs when they started this undergrading phase. They would fetch a premium, not unlike many undergraded coins in 1st gen holders.

fcloud

Loki,

Interesting, you say they have started an undergrading phase.

And I see the modern collectors mentioning more 70s.

I guess I would conclude an under/over phase depending on type??? I am really confused???

merysu

Loki, welcome to the club, I recently cracked out a FS Jeff to get a small piece of "glue" off the field. Having made more than a few raw FS Jeffs, I was confident in getting back at least the 65FS I had, yeah right. So much for consistency. -mark-

Loki

I'd say the trend is towards a general tightening of standards (undergrading as compared to expected PCGS standards) and it started right around when Laura posted her dismal results with crossovers. She commented on how other experienced dealers started noticing the tightening also, and that submitters who posted their results to the boards have generally been displeased more than content with their grade results as of late. Case in point is the recent post by a member who is very knowledgeable with Peace dollars and who posted his submission results with some choice Peace dollars from his collection that were well offline gradewise from what he expected to receive.

Bear

The greatest lessons learned are from our failures not our successes.

A prerequisite to membership on this Forum , is having been

blued, screwed and tatooed at least once in your collecting career.

marcmoish

Frankly I never liked that term period, I also frown upon any advertisement stating it can be regraded, or candidate for this and a old green holder story..., stuff like that is a total turn off. You know most of time its not gonna happen. So what's with us? Unless your a gambler. Gamblers gamble, in the end they usually lose. Regrade one coin thats luck, keep doing it you'll lose. If your really serious about buying coins that are super look for truly PQ examples of the given grade your looking for etc. Be patient and picky. If your looking to be a crackout expert of sorts your not a coin collector or professional numismatist. I'd label you a Ceritified Numismatic Gambler or CNG in short!
Just MHO

Marc

banknote1

Here is a dumb question. Couldn't you submit the old holdered PCGS coin for a re-grade without cracking it out of the holder, to PCGS???????
I just submitted an ANACS MS66 Morgan and a AU55 PCI green to NGC. I got the dollar back in a NGC MS66 holder! The AU55 Gold came back MS61!!??

K6AZ

<< <i>It's too bad they didn't change the look of the slabs when they started this undergrading phase. They would fetch a premium, not unlike many undergraded coins in 1st gen holders. >>



Ah, but they did. This tightening occured right about the time they put the barcode on the front of the blue label. I have scored some great coins in these slabs. In my opinion the grading of these slabs is the same as the old small holders.

Bulldog

I suck at the MS grades. Sure I can tell a 60 from a 65, But damned if I can tell a 64 from a 65.

Bulldog

Loki

<< <i>If your looking to be a crackout expert of sorts your not a coin collector or professional numismatist. I'd label you a Ceritified Numismatic Gambler or CNG in short! >>

Hmmm, well I like collecting coins, but I also know a great card counting method for blackjack that has bode well for me in the past. I certainly am not certified, although I could be certifieable. So I guess I'm a collector with a penchant for "controlled" gambling?

K6 thanks for that info! I will always look at the coin before the holder/grade, but it won't hurt if it is slabbed in the type of holder you mentioned!

marcmoish

Loki, you know what I mean I'm sure. look the whole thing has got outta hand. It just better to lable yourself one or the other

Dog97

Gold coins are really market graded. That means the graders cant tell the difference between honest wear and rub from being in a roll, stacked up in shipping boxes etc.
They just look at them say like Double Eagles and say yep looks like a $400 coin-slab it ms60. Yep looks like a $410 coin slab it ms62. Yep this one looks like a $425 coin call it 63. Hey here's one that doesn't look like it's been laying in the middle of the road, collectors pay more for these kind, call it 64.

Eastside

Hey Loki, Isn't he the god of mischif ?, anyhow sorry to hear about that, but it has confirmed some of my thoughts about undergrading latley as well, few monthes back I submitted my 6th and largest lot (21 coins) mostly FS Jeffs, and nievely felt I was becoming somewhat in the ballpark with PCGS thinkin. RESULTS 1 for 21, and it slill hurts to walk, and I'm talkin an average of 2 grade drops. anyways perhaps a phaze hopfully, overall in the past year PCGS has been great to me and will take it as a little nip, no lost sleep, no registry sets also, but make it hard to help those who do. anyways later and good luck.

EASTSIDE

Promote the Hobby

K6AZ

Loki, they really have been tough lately. Take a look at this PCGS hatchet job:

1900-O Toned Morgan

I bought this coin in an ANACS MS65 holder. No question in my mind it is a 65. Look at the cheek! I cracked it out and sent it to PCGS this past summer and I was shocked when I got it back as a "64". Strangely enough, it was the only one of fifteen ANACS slabs I cracked that downgraded at PCGS. I would really be ticked off if this were a white coin. As it is, with that toning in a PCGS slab, I could easily get my money out of it if I wanted to sell it.

Loki

[deleted]

Loki

I received the coin today and closer pics. Can anyone point out to me any reasons why this coin is graded AU58? Thanks...

keets

hey loki

there's always the chance that you bought the coin as an already overgraded AU58 in an MS62 holder. the risk associated with cracking out coins is legendary and well documented here, yet members continue to play and gripe when they lose. nothing wrong with that i guess. there is the alternative of sending the coin back in using one of your other free submissions.

another thing i find interesting is that there is a current thead about buying a coin based on what the seller claims, in this case that he felt it would upgrade. i've learned my lesson about that already. trust your own instincts and try not to buy into the hype.

al h.

Loki

Thanks Keets. Understood, well said!

prooflike

It looks like it has hairlines across the cheek and what is that discoloration on the hair above/tothe right of the ear?

tjkillian

Loki, PCGS must be smoking something strange. I clearly see a MS-63 coin there. It is very nice. Gold is very soft and I don't see the normal "cabinet friction/roll friction" on this piece. Resubmit?

Tom

clackamas

There is tons of chatter on the coin, not big marks but marks you get from being in someones pocket with a bunch of dimes. If the chatter is not from other gold coins it may have spent a brief period of time in circulation and is thus AU.

K6AZ

I see a lot of chatter as the others have pointed out. Also there appears to be the smallest rub in the hair just to the left of Y in LIBERTY. This looks like one of those fence sitting coins. 62 on a good day, 58 on a bad day. It is really close. Depending on the difference in price between 58 and 62 you may want to try sending it to NGC.

dorkkarl

dudes, that coin is NOT UNC! you've done a good job of capturing luster this time, & i can see the luster breaks over the ear, at the eyebrow, bridge of the nose, & most especially at the rim of the bust (bottom line of the bust)!

on these lib-gold coins, the proper "high-points", in my worthless opinion, is NOT where the ANA guidelines mention. i have always thought the high point was the bottom line of the bust. just my little hint to you.

now, back on my high-horse, i have seen WAY, WAY, WAY TOO MANY SLIDER GOLD COINS in "unc" slabs. & it bothers me when a story like yours is told, which it has been many times, & none of the "plastics-only" dudes chime in to illuminate the rest of us.

WHAT GIVES?

K S

eagle7

If you are going to try that route, better buy from people who dont know coins. Its not a problem for me to get my 7x zeiss under a halogen light and see stuff like that now after ive lost so much money in the past. Believe me, if I thought a gold coin like that would upgrade, I would not sell it to you. I would send it in myself.

eagle7

One other thing. I think PCGS has fallen prey to the efficiency expert. It takes time to correctly analyze the four grading areas, with eye appeal taking the most time. Eye appeal also takes the proper lighting to correctly analyze. All of this works against efficiency and the bottom line. Im sure that no one takes the time now to change lighting conditions, and it is absolutely true that coins with very light surface toning will look so beautiful it will take your breath away under room lighting, but will look like ugly dogs under the halogen light. This is because the harsh light penetrates the surface tone but will not reflect back, especially on proof coins. So, if people are to be efficient, they do not have time to accurately analyze all the aspects which should go into a coin's grade. In effect, on certain coins, eye appeal becomes a minus factor instead of a plus factor, due to improper lighting. This is my opinion and is based on looking at hundreds and hundreds of fifty to sixty four proof coins and gold coins with beautiful copper toning which I have sent to pcgs and ngc over the years. The only other thing one might do is dip the coins which is a thing I hate. I will keep the beauty of the coins uppermost in my mind and forget the grade. In fact, I search for beautiful toned gold coins in the low 62 to 63 grade in pcgs holders. They are a steal at todays prices and they look better than the dipped higher graded coins, which cost lots more money.

coinnerd

I have many times sent solid uncs to PCGS and gotten au-58s. After breaking them out I have sold them raw to dealers as uncs and they were thrilled to get them. I let my club membership lapse and rarely try to make slabs anymore.

DesertLizard

Why do people feel ripped off when they crackout a coin and then get it downgraded? Most times people are already pushing the envelope, trying to squeeze every last dollar of upgrade left in a coin. Then you end up with lots of overgraded slabs or low end for the grade slabs.

Looks like you got stuck with a lowend 62 which got properly graded the last time around.

BTW, I like the coin!

clackamas

>>> Why do people feel ripped off when they crackout a coin and then get it downgraded?

I am not trying to be an arse but that is one of the dumbest questions I have ever heard. Why do you think they "feel ripped off". Prehaps because the coin is either a 62 or a 58 it can't be both and either PCGS messed up this time or last time but either way PCGS messed up and someone got the short end of the stick.

Loki

Thanks for all your observations. Sure I lost a little $$ on this downgrade but the knowledge I've gained from reading your replies more than made up for it!

MAULUMALL

eagle7
For a new guy you stated your opinion pretty well.
Welcome to the boards

fcloud

When I called on my dime they gave me a song and dance about a small light rub or mark in front of Libery's face. Based on my conversation on my coin with customer service, I think it's the hairlines in the feild and on other parts of that coin.

Tony

eagle7

Thanks to all you guys for saying hello to a new guy, especially MAULUMALL and DCAMFranklin for saying hello on a personal level. And Loki its not your fault or Lord Marcovin's its just the PCGS game and they are the only winner. I would try breaking it out and selling it as a bu to someone. You would be correct to do so. Grading is after all a subjective art. These are words from their own mouth, PCGS that is. All grading is subjective. Your grade is as good as theirs as long as the coin is raw.

darktone

Loki, I wish all my AU coins looked as nice as your coin but I can see a few things that could keep it out of getting an MS grade- it almost looks to have areas with very small scratchs going in the same direction on the top 25% of the obverse and the area above the eagle on the reverse and some of the fields appear to have alot going on- the area between the eagles right wing and the word united have many surface marks for such a small coin( $2 1/2 liberty's don't get away with surface marks like a $20 liberty does) and likewise on the other side. The toning and copper spot don't hurt the coin in my opinion. But I could easily see this coin as mint state also as it does have luster and no big marks and if it does have a high point rub I don't see it. I guess what I mean to say is that it could be a 62 or it could be a 58 depending on what it's wow(first view) factor is. mike