Nightmare on ICG Street Part II
gwr4
Posts: 17
I was very happy to see all the responses to Part I.
This is not a "new" thread, it is one that will carry on long after we are gone.
These topics of discussion will cause us to write things that will get heated responses, thats the bottom line.
There are some things we all have in common.
We all want the best value for our coins we can get. Period. After the time it takes to visit dealers, attend tons of shows,
and hours of cherry picking why shouldn't we?
We all have coins because we just simply love the coin.
Hell, once you get this in your blood there is no turning back.
Some of us have ACG coins because "we liked it". Those are ours. It feeds our fire.
The real true problem lies here.
PCGS is a business, it has a monopoly on the "coin market" they dictate the (slabbed) values.
They should be the toughest. NGC, ICG, ACG, Global and a host of others give you the "collector" a choice on who you want
to be the third grade party, that will grade your coins in the event that you or someone else may have a difference in opinion on the grade.
That is where it should stop.
I do believe in my heart these other grading services, grade fairly, (Come on we all make mistakes, just look at posts on ICG Street Part I)
It just that they can not dictate the value, therfore as far as I concerned if it is not in a holder that says PCGS, then it is worth the price in the redbook.
That is intended for collectors like myself. If you are looking to "add value" to your collection, have your coins slabbed by PCGS.
Other then that, forget about the slabbing process, trust your grading ability, if you can't, have it graded by the party you "trust".
Finally,
Untill ICG creates their own "valueguide" their slabbed coins are just that. Slabbed Third Party Graded Coins.
That goes for the rest of the bunch as well, including NGC, who gets a bone thrown to them for having their prices realized by the Blue Sheet.
Remember folks, its a business to them, for most of us its still a hobby.
This is not a "new" thread, it is one that will carry on long after we are gone.
These topics of discussion will cause us to write things that will get heated responses, thats the bottom line.
There are some things we all have in common.
We all want the best value for our coins we can get. Period. After the time it takes to visit dealers, attend tons of shows,
and hours of cherry picking why shouldn't we?
We all have coins because we just simply love the coin.
Hell, once you get this in your blood there is no turning back.
Some of us have ACG coins because "we liked it". Those are ours. It feeds our fire.
The real true problem lies here.
PCGS is a business, it has a monopoly on the "coin market" they dictate the (slabbed) values.
They should be the toughest. NGC, ICG, ACG, Global and a host of others give you the "collector" a choice on who you want
to be the third grade party, that will grade your coins in the event that you or someone else may have a difference in opinion on the grade.
That is where it should stop.
I do believe in my heart these other grading services, grade fairly, (Come on we all make mistakes, just look at posts on ICG Street Part I)
It just that they can not dictate the value, therfore as far as I concerned if it is not in a holder that says PCGS, then it is worth the price in the redbook.
That is intended for collectors like myself. If you are looking to "add value" to your collection, have your coins slabbed by PCGS.
Other then that, forget about the slabbing process, trust your grading ability, if you can't, have it graded by the party you "trust".
Finally,
Untill ICG creates their own "valueguide" their slabbed coins are just that. Slabbed Third Party Graded Coins.
That goes for the rest of the bunch as well, including NGC, who gets a bone thrown to them for having their prices realized by the Blue Sheet.
Remember folks, its a business to them, for most of us its still a hobby.
0
Comments
one and offers $6 rates on pre 1952 commems in Numismatic News. There will be those who will
defend ICGs practice of saturating the market with thousands of false MS70s and those who insult
moderns and equate grade survival with mintage figures. There will also be an adundance of ignorance cloaked in the first ammendment. There will also be those who insult modern collectors.
What it boils down to is that ICG sucks egg and there is no recovery for them. There will also be
those who claim conspiracy on the part of PCGS and NGC. The fact of the matter is that the free
market is vastly dominated by the collector and not the dealer. The collector has spoken. PCGS
and NGC have a superior product. I just wish that those services who are inferior and those who
defend them, for a change, do something to improve their product and stop the whinning.!!
Happy holidays,
Brian.
They only way to stop them, is to stop sending coins to them to grade!
Where did you get your information on the "2 year old snapshot"?
But as you can see, many here have had coins graded fairly and accurate by "other" 3rd party graders.
PCGS has never disapointed you?
NOW, I do believe that they(third party graders besides PCGS and NGC) can, and do cheat.
By making those that may not be as "wise" as you, fall into the trap that they have "hit the jackpot" by getting an overgraded coin.
This is a lousy business practice.
But it won't last.
You collection is what it is. And so is everyone else's.
All we can do is warn them.
And tell them "not to come crying here" they were forewarned.
1976S Proof Copper-Nickel Type 1 PCGS 69 DCAM Ike - $220
1976S Proof Copper-Nickel Type 1 ICG 69 DCAM Ike - $39
There are thousands of examples just like that. One can argue the merits until the cows come home, but the decision has already been made by a force far more powerful than any of us.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>Where did you get your information on the "2 year old snapshot"? >>
gwr4,
The eBay survey is common knowledge:
http://www.camacs.com/coin_grading_services.html
Russ, NCNE
Russ, hmm my last name is russell
The link that you posted, says the last update was July 2002.
Thats not 2 years ago.
I also emailed them and asked if the "ratings" are up to date.
<< <i>The link that you posted, says the last update was July 2002.
Thats not 2 years ago. >>
That's the last update for the web site, it has nothing to do with the survey.
Russ, NCNE
I will also tell the 1,000's of listeners I have on the radio the same.
As a radio talk show host, it is my duty to bring the truth to all beings!
So, I will get to the bottom of it.
ICG MS-70s are all false.
Mintage is not equal to grade survival (I am still waiting for you to show where that point was made).
ICG sucks eggs and there is no recovery for them.
There is no conspiracy.
There is a free market dominated by collectors.
The market (read collectors) has spoken, and PCGS and NGC have a superior product.
It feels so good to exercise my First Amendment right to speak my mind freely in agreement with you. It seems you and Josef Goebbels would have seen eye to eye on free speech issues. (and yes I have replaced open insults with sarcasm).
Show me some blantant fraud such as overgraded 1886 Morgans in VF, DMPLs that aren't even semi-prooflike, or altered 93-Ps that look like a 93-S or brillo pad coins and I'll jump on the ICG bashing bandwagon. I never see these posted so ICG must satisfy most collectors and do a fair job.
Some of you seem unclear of the function of the 1st Amendment so here it is:
<<Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.>>
Since Congress has made no law respecting this message board I don't think anybody's 1st Amendment rights are being violated. Might want to get the NAACP, AFLCIO, or ACLU to check it out though.
has been extended to this site. Part of that right is to lodge foot firmly in
mouth. Most of us here have exercised these rights at one time or another,
but it hurts us all when it gets personal.
Sure there have examples of ICG graded coins being downgraded by PCGS & NGC. But there have also been examples of them being upgraded. This is not just true of ICG - it is true of ALL the grading companies.
And as for the " market speaking " - unh huh yeah right. Back in '98 &'99 the market spoke then too. It screamed from the rooftops that the dotcom stocks were the only way to go. Need I say more about the market speaking ?
<< <i>(and yes I have replaced open insults with sarcasm). >>
Definitely a step in the right direction......
Increase the Peace,
Joe
They should be the toughest.
1) PCGS is not a monopoly. They aren't even close.
2) NGC has been more successful than PCGS. They've graded more coins than PCGS.
3) If toughest is all it takes, then send your coins to me. I'll grade them really tough. Nothing, not even a modern proof, will grade higher than XF.
4) They dictate the "slabbed values"? What exactly does this mean?
(BTW, JTryka probably is a really nice person, and is also very knowledgeable about coins.)
As for all the ICG bashing, I should point out that the main thrust against them from the board members is that they are terrible with high grade moderns. While that may be an important issue for many of you, it is not of any significance to non-moderns collectors. The folks here keep on saying how much ICG sucks, period. Well, in what way do they suck? Just with grading high grade moderns? What about their warranty service? Is that legit? How about their customer service? Is that legit? How about their ability to BB problem and counterfeit coins? Or, the quality of their holders? Or, their attribution service? Or, their grading consistency? Or, their timeliness in getting the coins back to you?
Why would you slam a service so hard and so definitively based only on a single aspect?
And, please, no more about the market speaking... The market is comprised of people who can easily be swayed by politics, marketing or whatever else. Many people became very successful and wealthy by taking risks and doing the contrarian thing. During the 1930's, the price of Coca-Cola stock was severely undervalued. The market spoke then too. But, contrarian people bought them up and made a killing afterwards.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Excluding moderns. They overgrade most coins. Many coins in grades that PCGS/NGC have NEVER graded a coin at, ICG has graded several, yet they trade at a fraction of the price of a coin graded lower by the other services.
I've seen whizzed/PVC/cleaned/AT coins in their slabs. Sure, I've seen these in PCGS/NGC slabs, but with ICG it is much more common.
They claimed to be just like PCGS/NGC, but with better customer service. They began grading really loose and novices got screwed. Same as if buying an ACG coin.
I've seen coins they called XF that I would call VG. It's on thing to see a coin called XF and disagree by 1-2 grade points, but not 8 grade points.
You cannot sell their coins. They have no market acceptance. I could sooner sell an ACG coin than an ICG coin.
I appreciate the way you're trying to provide some real substance to back up your assertion. For those who are unfamiliar with ICG, I think the details you provide are very helpful. However, let me play devil's advocate some more...
The folks here keep on saying how much ICG sucks, period. Well, in what way do they suck?
Excluding moderns. They overgrade most coins. Many coins in grades that PCGS/NGC have NEVER graded a coin at, ICG has graded several, yet they trade at a fraction of the price of a coin graded lower by the other services.
A very similar comment can be, or has been, made by many here of NGC relative to PCGS.
I've seen whizzed/PVC/cleaned/AT coins in their slabs. Sure, I've seen these in PCGS/NGC slabs, but with ICG it is much more common.
I'm not disputing your claim here, but it would be helpful if you provided some numbers and percentages. As an extreme, if we're talking about 10 coins or so, then most would say that the sample size is insignificant to form any real conclusion.
They claimed to be just like PCGS/NGC, but with better customer service. They began grading really loose and novices got screwed. Same as if buying an ACG coin.
I doubt many people would equate ICG with ACG. For example, the folks at ICG have market standing. And, ICG's warranty exists, whereas ACG does not have one.
I've seen coins they called XF that I would call VG. It's on thing to see a coin called XF and disagree by 1-2 grade points, but not 8 grade points.
Is that the norm for the service, or is this an extreme example? Also, which service are we talking about? I've seen slabs by PCGS, NGC and ANACS where I've strongly and greatly disagreed with the slabbed grade. But, that's not the norm.
You cannot sell their coins. They have no market acceptance. I could sooner sell an ACG coin than an ICG coin.
Once again, please leave the market out of this. The market has a queer sense to it; what it likes isn't always due to technical merits.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
A very similar comment can be, or has been, made by many here of NGC relative to PCGS.
Yes, but they are labeled ostriches.
I've seen whizzed/PVC/cleaned/AT coins in their slabs. Sure, I've seen these in PCGS/NGC slabs, but with ICG it is much more common.
I'm not disputing your claim here, but it would be helpful if you provided some numbers and percentages. As an extreme, if we're talking about 10 coins or so, then most would say that the sample size is insignificant to form any real conclusion.
I'm not talking about "excused coins" like old bust dollars that are practically all cleaned, yet graded by all services. I'm talking about normal coins (Walkers, Buffalos, Seated, etc). I'd say the number of coins for PCGS/NGC that I feel have a problem is well under 1%. Yet for ICG I would say maybe 3%. Maybe that is rather harsh, but I think the ration of probably 20-1 is fair.
Out of the so-called top 4 services ICG seems to holder some of the most blatant AT coins.
I've seen coins they called XF that I would call VG. It's on thing to see a coin called XF and disagree by 1-2 grade points, but not 8 grade points.
Is that the norm for the service, or is this an extreme example? Also, which service are we talking about? I've seen slabs by PCGS, NGC and ANACS where I've strongly and greatly disagreed with the slabbed grade. But, that's not the norm.
Those are extreme examples. However, the norm seems to be 1-2 points overgraded for ICG. I'll admit I skip a lot of ICG coins since I feel they will be of poor quality. However, I look at a LOT of toned commems and they are frequently off by several points. It's like they took an MS64 and did their usual 2 point bump and then added a point for color.
You cannot sell their coins. They have no market acceptance. I could sooner sell an ACG coin than an ICG coin.
Once again, please leave the market out of this. The market has a queer sense to it; what it likes isn't always due to technical merits.
True, the market isn't 100% efficient, but it can be a very good judge of value. ICG has a long history of trading WELL under that of PCGS/NGC. If the coins were the same we'd all be buying them and putting them into PCGS/NGC slabs.
How many sight-unseen market makers are there out there that will pay the same money for an ICG coin as they would for a PCGS/NGC coin? I'll bet ZERO. How many are there that would pay 80% of PCGS/NGC value? I'll bet ZERO again.
Back in 2000, a local friend/dealer suggested I utilize ICG for some grading. He had found them to be quite strict and very consistent with some of his classical coins. I had put 14 proof Franklins aside for future crackouts, as I found them to be worthy of the Cameo grade. One of the 14 coins, a 1956 PR-67 Cameo, was already graded Cameo by ANACS. However, I thought the coin had a good shot at DCAM. 3 of the coins were in PCGS holders and 10 of the Franklins were in NGC holders. All 14 coins were carefully removed from their existing holders and sent to ICG for grading. The ANACS coin came back with the exact same grade, PR-67 Cameo. Two of the 3 PCGS coins came back with a LOWER numerical grade and no Cameo. However, I feel confident that had the coins been of a more "common" date, such as '63, they would have made Cameo. Everyone is very protective of the 1959. The 3rd PCGS Franklin was purchased from Val Webb. The recently graded 1957 PR-68 Franklin came back from ICG with the same numerical grade but with the Cameo designation! Thank goodness, as I really needed the profit from that coin to help offset the costs of this little experiment, due to the disaster I experienced with the NGC coins. ALL 10 of the NGC coins came back from ICG with a lower numerical grade than had been assigned by NGC! ALL 10! Six of the 10 coins received the Cameo grade, though the lower numerical grades wiped out the potential increase in value attributed to the Cameo grade. One coin, a 1961 PF-68, came back from ICG graded PR-64 Cameo. Four grading points below that provided by NGC!
Now, this little experiment only deals with proof Franklins. So, I am not here to call them a great 3rd party grading service based solely upon the results of this one series. However, I am here to say their grading practices for proof Franklins is very strict and consistent.
I've purchased numerous Walkers, in MS-65 & MS-66, over the past few years and find their grading of this series to be very strict. Even with recently graded examples. Therefore, I would say my experience is quite similar to that of EVP.
I've conceeded on a number of occasions that they have placed many modern coins in the DCAM holder when they only deserved Cameo. Personally, I have found their grading of the modern Silver Eagles to be at least on par with that of NGC. I've seen tons of their PR-70 DCAM Silver Eagles that are totally deserving of the PR-70 DCAM grade! Perhaps they wouldn't crackout and cross to PCGS, but not due to the quality of the coin. Only due to PCGS stomping on the brakes for the 70 grade over the past 3 years. It now appears they are going to accurately grade the 70 coin and I would encourage everyone to give their 69's close scrutiny and consider cracking them out and re-submitting them for consideration of the 70 grade.
ICG Sales On eBay For The Last 30 Days ~US Coins~:
NUMBER OF AUCTIONS: 1277
NUMBER OF AUCTIONS RESULTING IN A SALE: 608 (47.61%)
AVERAGE NUMBER OF BIDS PER AUCTION: 5.3
AVERAGE HIGH BID: $117.26
AVERAGE SALE PRICE: $111.53
TOTAL VALUE OF ALL HIGH BIDS: $85,601.50
TOTAL ACTUAL SALES: $70,596.83
Top 20 ICG Coins Sold On eBay In The Last 30 Days ~US Coins~:
Item Number Description Bids Sold For $
804808894 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar ICG EF45 RARE! 20 $5,700.00
805177801 $18000KENNEDY GOLD +more ICG NGC PCGS SILVER 22 $1,325.00
3300351446 2000-W PLATINUM 4 COIN PROOF SET--ICG PR69 6 $1,300.00
3301218978 Rare ICG MS-63 1878-S 5$ Gold Piece 1 $1,195.00
805110081 2002 ICG MS70 Gold Eagle Set $5 $10 $25 $50 1 $1,049.00
3300892497 American Silver Eagle Collection ICG PCGS 14 $1,025.00
805354168 2002 Gold Eagle Set MS70 ICG intercept shield 1 $950.00
3300377127 2002 ICG MS70 Gold Eagle Set $5 $10 $25 $50 1 $949.00
3300839266 33 SLAB w/ PCGS NGC GOLD SILVER ICG $16000 22 $866.76
3300105971 2001 Gold Eagle Set MS70 ICG 11 $860.89
805369352 1872-S Half Dime ICG MS 65! Real Nice! 11 $850.00
3300167689 WOW 2000 ICG MS69 4 PC. GOLD EAGLE SET PLUS 1 $795.00
3301081511 2001 ICG MS70 Set $50 $25 $10 $5 4 $789.24
805335774 2000 PLATINUM (4) PC SET ICG PR70 (RARE) 17 $780.00
3301080989 2000 ICG MS70 Set $50 $25 $10 $5 3 $780.00
3300472328 2001 American Gold Eagle Set - ICG Slab MS69! 8 $755.00
3300036056 (14) MONSTER RAINBOWS-PCGS/NGC/ICG HI GRADES 17 $710.00
805388229 2000-w Millennium Set ICG MS70 Silver Eagle+1 3 $671.00
3301424823 18 slab w/ PCGS NGC Morgan SILVER ICG $10000 15 $660.00
Jim
From your experiment, how can you say that they are consistent? All you can say is that they graded the coin differently than the other services. If you were to resubmit them and they graded the same over and over again, then that would prove they are consistent.
No one is doubting that they graded strict in the beginning. They did. Those days are long gone.
And, just because they graded them lower than the other services means nothing. It might mean they just can't grade them and are hard asses on them. You want to bet whether they would get the same grade if resubmitted today?
TOTAL VALUE OF ALL HIGH BIDS: $85,601.50
TOTAL ACTUAL SALES: $70,596.83
How can these numbers be different? The high bid is the final (sale) price.
804808894 1795 Flowing Hair Dollar ICG EF45 RARE! 20 $5,700.00
This coin bids for $5500 in EF40. I'd guess that a Choice EF and overall nice example of it would run $7000+.
3301218978 Rare ICG MS-63 1878-S 5$ Gold Piece 1 $1,195.00
This coin bids for $3300 in MS63.
ICG, are they weak with moderns? Probably, if you want to draw that conclusion based on population numbers alone, as I doubt many here have actually looked at a coin in an ICG holder (most probably can't look past the slab). Based on populations, yes there are more MS/PR-70s in ICG holders, but I'd hazard to guess not nearly as many as ACG. There are fewer such PCGS slabs around, but does that make PCGS right and ICG wrong? The logic is flawed if you believe that. My guess is the truth lies somewhere in between, and ICG has too many but PCGS has too few (I think the "7" was broken on all the PCGS computers until recently). And for most of you, my biggest question on moderns is what have you lost? How many of you pay the astronomical prices for raw coins and then hope to win the submission lotto with top pop grades? Not many, in fact I would bet no one on this forum has spent more than a few dollars on a raw modern (other than the occasional premium coin like a matte proof Kennedy), and then you have the guts to be ticked when it doesn't come back in a $1000 slab of plastic. Tell me, do you get mad at the 7-11 clerk when your lottery numbers don't come up?
How about consistency? Well, I've not heard nearly as many stories about people continually resubmitting coins to ICG to get the grade they wanted/the coin deserved. I've really only heard that with PCGS, and to a lesser extent with NGC. That could be because ICG overgrades as well, so few people are disappointed with the grades.
What about body bags? Well, I've received about the same number from both services, one from ICG I really disagreed with, but PCGS is a different story, especially the Gorgeous Seated Proof half I submitted that was body bagged for having hairlines, imagine that, hairlines on a seated proof, the humanity of it all! I've even submitted some BBs from PCGS to ICG thinking everyone may be right and I could get them into an "inferior" ICG holder. No luck, they BBed them for the same reasons!
Timeliness? They both measure up pretty much the same.
Customer service? ICG beats the pants off PCGS, who I believe is the worst in the business. Never have I been made to feel as though I was an irritant for just wanting fair treatment and the service I paid for. When I had fingerprints on my coins, it took about a minute for the e-mail reply to arrive basically saying it was my fault and the coins I sent had fingerprints on them when they arrived. I think they must have had that response written just to cut and paste into e-mail replies. All of the ICG folks I've spoken to by phone or e-mail have been courteous and helpful, even with bad news on grades or BBs.
Quality of the product (ex-grading)? I have never had coins returned from ICG with fingerprints or any other damage on them. Enough said.
Marketability? Well, PCGS is obviously favored by the market, but I wonder how much of this is due to marketing? After all, the marketing must be effective if people like WSM on this forum say things like, "jtryka, The # on the slab represents the condition of the coin, last I heard, the condition of the coin makes a difference in its value! and yes, these #s are correct most of the time!" I also wonder how much of the premium is due to PCGS undergrading (no one likes to mention that maybe a PCGS MS-65 gets a premium price because more astute collectors recognize the coin is really an MS-66), and how much is just because dealers etc. need to recoup the numerous submission fees they had to pay for the countless crackouts necessary to get that grade?
How about the holders? I like the way they both stack, but I prefer the ICG with the intercept shield inserts as I am not a fan of toning or brown coppers.
How about overall grading? We can argue about this till the end of time without meaningful resolution. I will say that I have looked at far more PCGS graded coins and then looked at the grade and scratched my head in disbelief than I have ever done on ICG, both over and undergraded coins.
What about problems coins in holders? Well that's a problem with all services, and although I haven't personally seen it with ICG I have seen it with others. The fact that so many dipped and AT coins end up in slabs is a problem for all (and let's not even talk about early coins that have been cleaned!). Here are a few examples of what I consider questionnable in other slabs: I would ask you to look at the following lots in the upcoming Heritage Ashland City Auction: Lot 4651 (NGC) Lot 4656 (PCGS) Lot 4675 (NGC) Lot 4676 (PCGS) Lot 4740 (NGC) Lot 4753 (NGC) Lot 4780 (NGC) Lot 4781 (NGC) Lot 4807 (PCGS) Lot 4867 (NGC). Now granted, there are many extreme rarities listed here, but it seems comical that the two big services would seemingly put their heads in the sand regarding the cleaning and polishing practices contemporary with these coins (and yes, I am fully aware of the die polishing and wearing issues for branch mint gold, especially the three southern mints). Most early coins have been cleaned at one point or another and that's fine. But to body bag some and encapsulate other based on some unpublished set of standards is a little crazy. This is why I prefer ANACS for earlier coins as they honestly try to note the cleaning and other problems many early issues come with.
Those are my thoughts, now flame away!
<< <i>JMOORE, a few observations:
TOTAL VALUE OF ALL HIGH BIDS: $85,601.50
TOTAL ACTUAL SALES: $70,596.83
How can these numbers be different? The high bid is the final (sale) price.
>>
Greg:
The High Bids for reserve auctions that did not sell are included in the High Bids Total.
They are not included in the total for the Actual Sells.
I'm not trying to post my opinion on ICG, just some eBay sales info.
Jim
They are not included in the total for the Actual Sells.
OK, but those aren't the actual high bids. The high bid might have been $1000, but the underbidder was only $100, so the "high bid" shows up as $105 when it is really $1000.
a free vacation or losing your home. It's a "free" choice that not any of us needs. It's a mockery to even call that a choice.
roadrunner
I still own the coin.
roadrunner
sorry to hear of your bad experience. Was this your only experience with ICG or have you had other that were positive? Have you ever had a similar negative experience with any other service?
at shows. Yes, there are random examples of certain coins being more conservatively graded in
ICG holders. Yes, there are random examples of PCI coins being more conservatively graded than
PCGS and NGC. But I think we need to have a frank and rational discussion of the facts. Here is
what I have learned.
1.I have never come face to face with a collector who didn't give any thought to how his collection
would be perceived if he or she ever passed away or sold it for any given reason and how it
would be valued at sale.
2. I have never come face to face with a collector who would rather have his collection in ICG/PCI
holders rather than PCGS/NGC, whether its a bust dime or a West point academy modern commem.
3.Even though there are random examples of ICG/PCI grading higher, the vast overall market
accepts PCGS /NGC as more consistent. Now, everyone can't be in on the so called alleged PCGS/NGC
conspiracy. So what it boils down to is this, put your money where your mouth is. If you would
rather spend $1000 on a mint state bust dime in an ICG holder rather than PCGS/NGC, then its
your money. But don't tell me that no matter how nice the coins is, the buyer is only going to look
at the merits of the coin and ignore the holder.
Happy holidays,
Brian.
Fortunately for me most sellers are like you and have no idea what they have, so cost is
usually nominal, but I have paid a lot sometimes when the owner knew what he had.
You are badly mistaken if you believe modern collectors collect only plastic. There are as
many different types of modern collectors as there are classic collectors. Like classic col-
lectors most of us are just seeking coins for our collections rather than trying to score big
in the lottery.
<< <i>Ya know - in threads like this it always seems that people forget something - buy the coin - not the slab. These type of threads seem more like - buy the coin - unless it is in their slab. Seems silly to me. What about those examples of coins graded by ICG as MS66 that were submitted to PCGS or NGC and came back graded MS67 ? Oh that's right I forgot - those don't count.
Sure there have examples of ICG graded coins being downgraded by PCGS & NGC. But there have also been examples of them being upgraded. This is not just true of ICG - it is true of ALL the grading companies.
And as for the " market speaking " - unh huh yeah right. Back in '98 &'99 the market spoke then too. It screamed from the rooftops that the dotcom stocks were the only way to go. Need I say more about the market speaking ? >>
This bears repeating.
rather spend $1000 on a mint state bust dime in an ICG holder rather than PCGS/NGC, then its
your money. But don't tell me that no matter how nice the coins is, the buyer is only going to look
at the merits of the coin and ignore the holder.
For the record, I'm not defending ICG. I don't feel I shoudl have to defend any service, because I'm always hoping that it's the coin that is paramount.
That being said, I did spend over $10K on an 1878-CC Trade Dollar, graded MS62 by ICG. And, I agreed with the grade and loved the coin.
Would I do it again? Maybe yes, maybe no. It all depends on the coin...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Newbies, be willing to look beyond the "plastic" of the coin. Look at the qualities of the coin and ignore the holder! If you must have the individual coin in a particular holder, then you can spend the grading fees required to put the coin in the holder you want to own.
Me, I am more than willing to obtain a properly graded ICG coin and retain it in the ICG holder. Now, if I feel the coin will upgrade at NGC or PCGS, such as EVP's 3 Walkers, then I would be foolish not to try and upgrade the coins to the higher holder. Now, that wouldn't be any different if the Walkers were in a PCGS/NGC holder would it??????
<< <i>Jtryka; You lose again. I've long bought raw moderns for whatever it took to get them. >>
I'm not sure what I lost, but OK. I still have not seen any cases where the price of a raw coin reaches the price of the "grade rarity" coin in a slab. Can you point to examples, either at auction, or retail websites, or even personal experience where the price of a raw coin reaches even half the level for the slabbed coin?
<< <i>Fortunately for me most sellers are like you and have no idea what they have, so cost is usually nominal, but I have paid a lot sometimes when the owner knew what he had. >>
So I infer from this statement that it's the ignorant collectors like me that don't know much about moderns that provide opportunities for bargains for modern collectors. Does this imply that the collectors that pay the premium prices for the coins in the slab are somehow more saavy? Somehow I think that neither group wins, the only winner is the person in the middle, making the huge spread by slabbing the raw coin and getting lucky enough to have some coins come back in the right holder with the right number on it.
then it therefore follows that all moderns have little value. You might care to
examine this assumption. If you really like moderns, you might want to examine
some coins.
You know those winning lottery tickets are still winners after they are scratched.
To use your analogy.
You also must be careful about their variety attributions. I have seen them make some serious mistakes on varieties that are listed in the Red Book. To be fair I have seen PCGS make the same kinds of the mistakes.
I am sorry that ICG did not make it as a first tier grading service. I had hopes for them when they introduced themselves a few years ago. They put out some conservatively graded coins. But when they did not get on the Blue Sheet and some of the large dealers who have a financial interest in the established services went after them it was all down hill.
I then began purchasing coins graded by many services including NGC, PCGS, SEGS, PCI, and others.
I found that I was apparently overpaying for some coins in grades because when I attempted to up-grade no one would pay me near what I had spent for the Coin. That is, until I started buying strictly PCGS and in some instances NGC slabbed Coins. This was enough of an education for me.
Dan
You should also consider what method was used to arrive at those listed prices. It does not matter really which price guide you use - Numismedia - PCGS - Trends - they all pretty much use the same method. And that is they track ads, realized prices for auction records both on-line & live, buy lists and the populations records for a given coin. They then try to take an average based on these things to determine a price. But when only a few, and many times only 1, example of a coin being sold or offered at a given grade exist - this understandably skews the price to what may seem to be or actually is an unrealistic number.
You must also consider just why that unrealistic price was paid. In many cases, I'd venture to say most of them, this is because of the fierce competition among registry members to have the best sets. Some of these people will pay outlandish prices just so they can say they have number 1. In a nutshell - that is the reason for the extreme spreads in price to grade ratios.
Insanity - I agree. But then most of the general public thinks almost of us are insane. For who in their right mind would pay $1,000 - $10,000 for a dime - a cent - or a half dollar ? And they don't care if it's 100 or 200 years old and that only 10 - 20 or 274 of them exist. To them - it's just insane. But to us - we think nothing of it.
So I guess insanity is just a relative term.
So I am wondering, are there 10's, 100's, 1000's, or more of these SMS MS69's out there? Not that it is good or bad - I may crack a better one out and see what PCGS gives me.
I agree what has been said on other posts about the typical person not being able to pick out a MS70 from a group of 19 MS69's.
I recently sent back a mistake grade to ICG, I'll let you guys know what they do with it and how they treat me. A 1922-S Peace dollar in MS65. I am curious how their guarantee will work.