confused on toning / PL / DMPL. MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!

thankyou

This is really confusing me and any help is appreciated. Thanks ppl. Oh, and BTW, MERRY CHRISTMAS -_-!




<< <i>I can't post images right now. My camera is loaned out.

One more question: Somewhere, in one of my reference books, I had read a decription of what constitutes semi-proflike, proof-like and deep mirror proof-like. I haven't found the reference yet, but recall that it had to do with distance from the coin you could put a newspaper and still read it in the coin's mirrors. I think you had to have 3-4 inches for proof-like and six for deep mirror proof-like. Am I even close?

Veep >>




Now, my question. How can you tell if a coin is DMPL or PL if there is so much gunk covering, or "toning", on the coin, that you cannot make out what is underneath the stuff?


thankyou

KlectorKid

Most heavily toned coins lose the designationg unless there is enough white or light tone area so the mirrors can show through. It can greatly affect the differance between pl and dmpl, if the mirrors are not visable or are clouded with toning so to speak it will not get dmpl, there are a exeptions to above of course.

thankyou

thankyou for your answer which brings up another question. If a coin has mirror surfaces that haven't been ruined yet, under the gunk, should it be dipped, etc. and the gunk taken off to show it's mirror surfaces, then submitted to pcgs for grading, or should it be considered not a dmpl or pl, and worth much less, even if they are nice surfaces under the gunk?

thankyou

prooflike

Same rules apply to toned mirrors, if you don't meet the specs, you don't get the designation.

thankyou

I appreciate your input very much, but I cannot see where that would be an asnwer to my question. No offense of course. Same question please.

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KlectorKid

Depends some times an awesomely toned coin is worth more then a blast white dmpl coin, But other times or if the toning is ugly then a dip might do it good.

thankyou

This would need dipped. correct?



thanks for any input.

thankyou

BTW, the thumb print on the cheek is from Bradly coins in oregon.

KlectorKid

If u know it has PL or DMPL surfaces yes i would say u could get the haze off with a quick dip. A few more opinions would be suggested before dipping though.

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Adam, PL, and kollectorkid, thanks for answering ( I should have just put the pic up then asked, but I was confused by the issue )lol. It is a confusing, thin line weather or not to do this. It's gonna take years for me to learn this stuff. As I said before, I'm in! lol


Thankyou ppl

Placid

I sent a morgan with heavy toning and what looked like pl or dmpl srufaces under the toning to ncs.
The coin came white but marked as cleaned, under the toning were some cleaning hairlines that the toning hid.

Mike921

Is that a "o" mint mark?? I would dip it. I think it would do wonders for that coin.

thankyou

I am pretty sure, this has been in a bag from when received, so I don't think that would be the case here, but your opinion is always appreciated as I am a newB.

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Dog97

If you can't se the mirrors on a Prooflike then it aint no such animal.
The one you pictured is beyond help because the dark areas would still be there after a dip. At the very best they would be dull gray lackluster areas after the dip and the fingerprints would still be there as white & gray lines..

KlectorKid

Dog the way i under stand is that the dark stuff is the under-lying mirrors and he wants to get rid of the haze... ThankYou could u clarifiy?

KlectorKid

Is the coin AU, if so a dip would not really be worth it.

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It isn't the "O" mintmark which is a little more rare untill you get to the 1903 "dmpl", which I thing there is a strong possibility of this coin being, or at least on the boarder of being, as the mirror in some of the less hazed sposts is VERY reflective as it also seems will be under the other more hazed sections if dipped ( which I do not know how to do ). It is the P-mint.

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Mike921

You should be able to tell if it has mirrored surfaces under that gunk if so I would dip it. Then again some people like "original" coins.

Mike921

If there is any clearly visible wear I wouldn't dip it. Since it's not an "o"

Placid

If you decide you want the coin dipped sent it to ncs and have them do it.
The mirrors are the surface and when you dip a coin you are removing the surface layer.
If you have alot of experience with dipping coins like ncs then you know how much to delute the chemicals and how long to treat the coin to acheive the best results.
Not a job for a beginner in my opinion.

thankyou

I don't thing the coin is au. It has pretty much the most and detailed features that I have seen on about on any 1903 P mint morgan dollar ( more than the ones selling "with great detail". Shows more detail in every aspect then those. ( which sold for much as you can referrence of cours ). The picture is not a very good picture and does not show that. I am still learning to try to take a pic this small. There is no wear on the hair below liberty, on the eagles wing tips nor soforth. Not AU. It is better and less rubbed than the best MS 65 I've seen graded through pcgs which surely you can referrence.

Also, I can see the mirror pretty darn clearly through most of the haze, but I am having a problem showing this with my camera though ( which someone told me, that pl or dmpl is the hardest thing to capture on a camera which seems very true, especially through a wall of gunk or haze.

thankyou

thankyou

There is absolutely NO visible wear to me. ( aside for the local dealers thumbprint )

KlectorKid

Check the frost on Ms. Liberty is it frosty? Here is mine if to compare to

prooflike

From the picture provided, that 1903 looks AU at best.

If toning is so thick that you can't see the mirrors underneath, then dipping it long enough to remove the tone may pit the mirrors(if they existed) and the coin would be considered damaged goods.

Try dipping some silver, experiment!

thankyou

No, Mine is not a "cameo", which would typically constitute a DMPL, but that is why I said I think it is on the boarder line as she is basically mirrord too, just not as much. Which if I am picking up correclty, would put that on the border line of DMPL and PL. I certainly may be corrected on this as again, I am a newB of a few months. Much appreciated.

thankyou

thankyou

<< <i>From the picture provided, that 1903 looks AU at best.

If toning is so thick that you can't see the mirrors underneath, then dipping it long enough to remove the tone may pit the mirrors(if they existed) and the coin would be considered damaged goods.

Try dipping some silver, experiment! >>




Hi, Please explain, what would in your opninion make this an AU rather than an MS say 65 or 66. Thanks.

thankyou


( ah, ps, the hair above the ears ,etc. I understand your call on that, but as said, honestly, the coin has much more detail than the pic shows. I will try to snap a better one. brb .) thankyou

KlectorKid

The hair above the Liberty's ear... my coin is borderline DMPL at best, u need the cameo to get the PL.

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This didn't work at all, but shows the detail much better but looks nothing like the color of the coin. I either can get "detail" or I can get the color ( sort of ) as the other picture semi-showed, and I cannot capture the mirrors even slightly.


Here is the back of the coin ( it is not frosted either but almost shows the mirrors under the gunk. but not really close to in person.






Again, now the back has no detail in that pic. grrrrrrrrrrrr

thankyou

thankyou

by pcgs standards ( which are the highest ), a coin does not need to be a "cameo" to be a prooflike, let alone a DMPL.

thankyou

KlectorKid

Ww the obv. looks kind of scratched... it may have been cleaned at some time and then retoned.

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This coin was in a little baggy ( but there were about 10 other "loose" coins in box with this which were on top of it.

( the worst one of course right in her cheek! grrrr)

thankyou

MastaHanky

HOLY CLEANED COIN BATMAN!

Don't bother dipping it. The shinyness you are seeing is from the cleaning. A dip won't help any; this is beyond repair.

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You'd have to look at the first picture to know it doesn't look like this at all. ( that shows the details ) but does not look like the surface even slightly.

thankyou

KlectorKid

Where did u get your DMPL info from? I would disagree with the "fact" that PCGS has the toughest standards... for a grading compainy maybe but for numismatics in general people have alot tougher standards.... Early American Copper members for example have extremally tough standards.

prooflike

I based the AU on the lower hair curls in the first pic, the second pic does show the detail better. By your second pic it looks cleaned/retoned(fields cleaner than right around the devices, usually fields get cleaned better than the less accessible areas.).

Why is the cheek so shiny, is there a change of luster here (aka rub)?

Pesonally, I like Morgan cams & wouldn't touch a PL/DMPL without the cam/frost.

thankyou

deep mirror prooflike
Any coin that has deeply reflective mirror-like fields, the term especially applicable for Morgan dollars. Those Morgan dollars that meet PCGS standards are designated deep mirror prooflike (DMPL).



Prooflike
Term to designate a coin that has mirror-like surfaces, the term especially applicable to Morgan dollars. Those Morgan dollars that meet PCGS prooflike standards are designated PL.


Cameo
The term applied to coins, <u>usually</u> Proofs and prooflike coins, that have frosted devices and lettering that contrast with the fields. When this is deep the coins are said to be “black and white” cameos. Occasionally frosty coins have “cameo” devices though they obviously do not contrast as dramatically with the fields as the cameo devices of Proofs do. Specifically applied by PCGS to those 1950 and later Proofs that meet cameo standards (CAM).



from the morgan lingo and grading guide infomation

KlectorKid

Reverse has mirrors but not much frost... maybe polished? Either way thankyou im sorry to say that u most likely have a problem coin... u didnt pay to much for this piece did u?

thankyou

Hi, again, as I took the coin to Bradly's coins in Portland, OR, the man grabbed the bag, then very intentionally depressed his thumb on the cheek of the coin, through the baggy it was in.

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prooflike

This is what a coin looks like that is a PL (with purple tone) and if dipped would DMPL. This was done with a scanner so of course, the darker areas are mirrors. Notice the frost which is typically associated with PL/DMPL strikes. This coin has mirrros even through the purple tone(the darker patch above Liberty and by ONE DOLLAR)

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I inherited it. ( it was never out of the bag supposedly ). thanks.

KlectorKid

<< <i>Proofs and Prooflike >>

there is your answer there

It is most likely polished.

thankyou

also, the fronts mirrors are deeper than the reverse.

thankyou, ( the picture does not show this)

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pass this one around at the cubscout meeting? LOL

thankyou.

KlectorKid

Nice coin/scan PL... my pictures never turn out like that.

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I'm using a really bad digital camera lol.

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I'm sure you can see some of the diferences between the first and second picture of the same coin.


I will pass this one around as a conversation piece I suppose.

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KlectorKid

Thankyou, its good to see someone that can take a blow and still keep his cool. It hard to find someone that doesnt say all u guys are wrong it has never been messed with cause its been in my family for 3 weeks.

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LOL,

My whole life is one big blow after another. lol. I better know how to take one. lol


my coin is a scoad toad, I will live with it then chuck it in a river. lol


thankyou very much for the help, and you guys are great! I really appreciate your input and help!


thankyou

KlectorKid

No Problem thats what us Numisma-geeks are for. (no offence intended for for any of the other people that helped)

thankyou

lol, I should fit right in then! -_-


thankyou,

carl

thankyou

I do have one more question on this. Are you sure it was cleaned and that it cannot possibly be the little baggy it came in that rubbed on the coin in the fields where you say it has been "cleaned". ( which I am fairly certain it hasn't been ).

thankyou

KlectorKid

If u look at the 2nd set of pics the obv has a ton of hairlines and scratches most likely from a harsh cleaning product like soap and a brillo pad.

MastaHanky

No, the whole coin (not just the fields) have the cleaned look.