FBL Standards - The Smoking Dog View
FC57Coins
Posts: 9,140 ✭
Merry Christmas all!!
Gilbert asked David Hall about the standard to be followed when defining FBL Franklins and his response was as follows:
<< <i>PCGS standards for FBL focus on the bottom lines...as I believe do most collectors. Since there is now some controversy about this, I'll contact major collectors and dealers and we'll re-examine our position on FBLs. We do this from time to time as market preferences change. But be aware that changes to policy are rare. >>
So, here goes my 4 bits worth on the subject:
I'm willing to go along with this assessment as long as we keep things in perspective. The Full Bell Lines designation is supposed to denote what is and isn't a fully struck coin. The bell lines are one of three details that should show up on a Franklin to determine this, and because of strike features, it has now been accepted by the market as the main determinant. Now, there are going to be exceptions, and I think these exceptions are what Gilbert is referring to.
First of all, you have to understand that the series is full of variations with respect to strike. In addition to this, there are variations within each mint's products. Generally speaking "D" mint coins represent the best of the lot as far as strike is concerned. Unfortunately, "D" mint coins suffer from extreme bag marks, so where you run into a problem is that you will get a great strike, but because of dings and other damage, you don't get the gem classification. "P" mint coins are generally good starting from 1948 through 1952. 1953 is awful, as are most 1960's coins from Philadelphia. The mid years in the 1950's tend to be average I think. "S" mints are generally very weak, particularly, and obviously the 53S. In addition, 52S, 51S, and 49S in that order tend to be weakly struck. 54S in my mind is a weird date, in that you get the whole range of strike variations from strong and full, to horrible.
That taken into account, here is how I look at the subject. First - what am I looking for when I look for FBL's? Ideally, I look for fully struck bell lines all the way through, both top and bottom. Here is a good example:
Now mind you, a little ding here and there is acceptable. Let's not forget that the bell lines are used as a demarcation of strike. So, in my mind, what we're using them for is to help determine how well the coin is struck. Obviously if there is considerable damage to the bell lines, then it should not get the designation, but one minute ding like the one above, should not impair the designation. These are full and crisp bell lines in my mind.
Next you take a look at the secondary markers. Is Pass and Stow clearly visible to the naked eye, are the three wisps of hair clear, and does the coin generall have a crispness about it. Here is where the market in my mind starts waffling. Already the gurus of the series have accepted the fact that because of strike variations, you can't always use these two markers to determine full strike. The reason is that on certain dates, particularly in the late 50's, the master die started wearing out, therefore the design did not transfer as fully as intended, therefore, a fully struck coin will show less than the initially desired design features. Here are a couple of examples of what I think are fully struck coins. Note that they are early dates in the series:
Even though the pictures may show some flaws and the detail may not all be there, you have to trust me that when you're holding these puppies in your hand, they're all there. Notice the fully struck bell lines, the strong Pass and Stow, and the three wisps are readily visible and well defined. Coins of this caliber generally include those struck in 1948, most 49P and D, most 1950P, 1951P and D, and a good representation of 1952P and D. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that the D mints from these years were plagued with a lot of bag marks, so you may find a well struck coin that, due to damage from handling, doesn't meet the criteria of FBL.
Now, the problems and judgement calls come with the lesser children of the series. Here is where the problems with the series start in my mind. As the series entered 1952 and continuing on through 1959, the master die started deteriorating rapidly, so each year you had weaker and weaker design features. In addition, for some reason unknown to me, different mints operated their presses at different pressures, so you have variations on the depth of strike within these years as well. The first marginally struck coin that I want to bring to your attention is the 1953P. This coin is generally accepted as one of the weakest struck "P" mint coins. So, the question in my mind then becomes, what's the best that can be expected from this date? Well, you're certainly not going to find the detail of the coins pictured above very often at all. Here is a sample of about "as good as it gets" in this date:
When you look at this coin in person, you see that Pass and Stow shows some weakness, as do the three wisps. In addition, the bell lines have to be "searched" a bit. What I mean by this is that in order to see the full bell line feature well, you have to turn the coin slightly, and when you do this, they are in fact there. Now, I think that NGC would scoff at this, but in actuality the bell lines are there, and again, this is about as good as it gets in my opinion. This is why when you look at the population reports from NGC, you only see 18 coins listed as FBL in all grades. Now I don't know about you, but as a collector of the series, I want to have some latitude to be able to complete a set with coins that meet this standard, and this is where I think you start to get some differentiation with the point of view from PCGS and NGC. In my opinion, you have to look at the entire coin, you have to consider the striking qualities of the particular date and mint, and then you have to look at the bell lines to see what you have. I realize that in the above coin you have additional dings on the lines, and here again, you have to determine for yourself how "snobbish" you want to be with respect to the accuracy of what is an FBL coin. For my money this piece, given the fact that it's about as well struck as it gets, and that it's fully white, met my criteria. remember too that 1953P's are often darkly toned with a lot of speckling, which in my mind makes them ugly.
Other examples of coins in which judgement needs to be exercised are shown below:
On both of these coins, particularly the 51S, you have to search for the FBL's even more so than on the 53P that I've shown. Both of these coins received PCGS MS65FBL designations, and in their own right they have some positives and negatives going for them. The 61D is as well struck a coin for this date as I've seen. Remembering that when the master die was re-worked in 1960, the bell lines were not as fully defined as they were in the original master die. In addition, the mint started cranking out many million more coins in the early 60's which led to horrible strikes and extreme bag handling damage. Given these factors, where do you draw the line? NGC shows only 16 MS65FBL's in their population report, as opposed to 162 in the PCGS report. Again, looking at overall strike characteristics and overall quality for the date and mint, I would tend to forgive a little on this date and go with the PCGS overall grade.
The 51S is a different animal. This one is in my registry set because I picked it up for less than half of what a fully struck piece would go for. On it's positive side, when you look at the coin in person, it is almost mark free. An unfortunate scratch on the reverse between "States" and "of" prevents this piece from being an MS67. On the negative side, you have a lot. The toning is not the best, it's got fingerprints, and the strike is mushy. To see the bell lines on this coin you have to use light and magnification, in addition to turning the coin to just the right angle. This is the kind of coin that would give my friend Gilbert nightmares, and in actuality, when I find an MS66FBL upgrade, this is one of the ones that's going to go back to Dave for reconsideration.
The last piece that I want to talk about is the 54S. This coin is where I think we need to draw the line as to what IS and ISN'T FBL:
This coin is graded PCGS MS65FBL - strange but true. As you can see, this is about as mushy a strike as you will ever see, and unfortunately, it's typical for this date and mint. If you look closely to the reverse, however, you will see that the bottom bell lines are full. In my mind this is an anomally and this is the type of coin that cannot be considered FBL. There are no upper bell lines visible whatsoever, the strike is horrible, and in short, whoever graded this one must've had one helluva hangover. This coins should, by all means go back for reconsideration.
Well - there you have it, my Christmas morning rant. I'm sure a lot of you Franklinites will shoot barbs at my post, and in some cases well deserved. That's the beauty of this series, it has a lot of play in it, it is full of varieties and considerations, and it's very challenging. So have at it people - I love it!
Best regards,
Frank
Gilbert asked David Hall about the standard to be followed when defining FBL Franklins and his response was as follows:
<< <i>PCGS standards for FBL focus on the bottom lines...as I believe do most collectors. Since there is now some controversy about this, I'll contact major collectors and dealers and we'll re-examine our position on FBLs. We do this from time to time as market preferences change. But be aware that changes to policy are rare. >>
So, here goes my 4 bits worth on the subject:
I'm willing to go along with this assessment as long as we keep things in perspective. The Full Bell Lines designation is supposed to denote what is and isn't a fully struck coin. The bell lines are one of three details that should show up on a Franklin to determine this, and because of strike features, it has now been accepted by the market as the main determinant. Now, there are going to be exceptions, and I think these exceptions are what Gilbert is referring to.
First of all, you have to understand that the series is full of variations with respect to strike. In addition to this, there are variations within each mint's products. Generally speaking "D" mint coins represent the best of the lot as far as strike is concerned. Unfortunately, "D" mint coins suffer from extreme bag marks, so where you run into a problem is that you will get a great strike, but because of dings and other damage, you don't get the gem classification. "P" mint coins are generally good starting from 1948 through 1952. 1953 is awful, as are most 1960's coins from Philadelphia. The mid years in the 1950's tend to be average I think. "S" mints are generally very weak, particularly, and obviously the 53S. In addition, 52S, 51S, and 49S in that order tend to be weakly struck. 54S in my mind is a weird date, in that you get the whole range of strike variations from strong and full, to horrible.
That taken into account, here is how I look at the subject. First - what am I looking for when I look for FBL's? Ideally, I look for fully struck bell lines all the way through, both top and bottom. Here is a good example:
Now mind you, a little ding here and there is acceptable. Let's not forget that the bell lines are used as a demarcation of strike. So, in my mind, what we're using them for is to help determine how well the coin is struck. Obviously if there is considerable damage to the bell lines, then it should not get the designation, but one minute ding like the one above, should not impair the designation. These are full and crisp bell lines in my mind.
Next you take a look at the secondary markers. Is Pass and Stow clearly visible to the naked eye, are the three wisps of hair clear, and does the coin generall have a crispness about it. Here is where the market in my mind starts waffling. Already the gurus of the series have accepted the fact that because of strike variations, you can't always use these two markers to determine full strike. The reason is that on certain dates, particularly in the late 50's, the master die started wearing out, therefore the design did not transfer as fully as intended, therefore, a fully struck coin will show less than the initially desired design features. Here are a couple of examples of what I think are fully struck coins. Note that they are early dates in the series:
Even though the pictures may show some flaws and the detail may not all be there, you have to trust me that when you're holding these puppies in your hand, they're all there. Notice the fully struck bell lines, the strong Pass and Stow, and the three wisps are readily visible and well defined. Coins of this caliber generally include those struck in 1948, most 49P and D, most 1950P, 1951P and D, and a good representation of 1952P and D. One thing that you have to keep in mind is that the D mints from these years were plagued with a lot of bag marks, so you may find a well struck coin that, due to damage from handling, doesn't meet the criteria of FBL.
Now, the problems and judgement calls come with the lesser children of the series. Here is where the problems with the series start in my mind. As the series entered 1952 and continuing on through 1959, the master die started deteriorating rapidly, so each year you had weaker and weaker design features. In addition, for some reason unknown to me, different mints operated their presses at different pressures, so you have variations on the depth of strike within these years as well. The first marginally struck coin that I want to bring to your attention is the 1953P. This coin is generally accepted as one of the weakest struck "P" mint coins. So, the question in my mind then becomes, what's the best that can be expected from this date? Well, you're certainly not going to find the detail of the coins pictured above very often at all. Here is a sample of about "as good as it gets" in this date:
When you look at this coin in person, you see that Pass and Stow shows some weakness, as do the three wisps. In addition, the bell lines have to be "searched" a bit. What I mean by this is that in order to see the full bell line feature well, you have to turn the coin slightly, and when you do this, they are in fact there. Now, I think that NGC would scoff at this, but in actuality the bell lines are there, and again, this is about as good as it gets in my opinion. This is why when you look at the population reports from NGC, you only see 18 coins listed as FBL in all grades. Now I don't know about you, but as a collector of the series, I want to have some latitude to be able to complete a set with coins that meet this standard, and this is where I think you start to get some differentiation with the point of view from PCGS and NGC. In my opinion, you have to look at the entire coin, you have to consider the striking qualities of the particular date and mint, and then you have to look at the bell lines to see what you have. I realize that in the above coin you have additional dings on the lines, and here again, you have to determine for yourself how "snobbish" you want to be with respect to the accuracy of what is an FBL coin. For my money this piece, given the fact that it's about as well struck as it gets, and that it's fully white, met my criteria. remember too that 1953P's are often darkly toned with a lot of speckling, which in my mind makes them ugly.
Other examples of coins in which judgement needs to be exercised are shown below:
On both of these coins, particularly the 51S, you have to search for the FBL's even more so than on the 53P that I've shown. Both of these coins received PCGS MS65FBL designations, and in their own right they have some positives and negatives going for them. The 61D is as well struck a coin for this date as I've seen. Remembering that when the master die was re-worked in 1960, the bell lines were not as fully defined as they were in the original master die. In addition, the mint started cranking out many million more coins in the early 60's which led to horrible strikes and extreme bag handling damage. Given these factors, where do you draw the line? NGC shows only 16 MS65FBL's in their population report, as opposed to 162 in the PCGS report. Again, looking at overall strike characteristics and overall quality for the date and mint, I would tend to forgive a little on this date and go with the PCGS overall grade.
The 51S is a different animal. This one is in my registry set because I picked it up for less than half of what a fully struck piece would go for. On it's positive side, when you look at the coin in person, it is almost mark free. An unfortunate scratch on the reverse between "States" and "of" prevents this piece from being an MS67. On the negative side, you have a lot. The toning is not the best, it's got fingerprints, and the strike is mushy. To see the bell lines on this coin you have to use light and magnification, in addition to turning the coin to just the right angle. This is the kind of coin that would give my friend Gilbert nightmares, and in actuality, when I find an MS66FBL upgrade, this is one of the ones that's going to go back to Dave for reconsideration.
The last piece that I want to talk about is the 54S. This coin is where I think we need to draw the line as to what IS and ISN'T FBL:
This coin is graded PCGS MS65FBL - strange but true. As you can see, this is about as mushy a strike as you will ever see, and unfortunately, it's typical for this date and mint. If you look closely to the reverse, however, you will see that the bottom bell lines are full. In my mind this is an anomally and this is the type of coin that cannot be considered FBL. There are no upper bell lines visible whatsoever, the strike is horrible, and in short, whoever graded this one must've had one helluva hangover. This coins should, by all means go back for reconsideration.
Well - there you have it, my Christmas morning rant. I'm sure a lot of you Franklinites will shoot barbs at my post, and in some cases well deserved. That's the beauty of this series, it has a lot of play in it, it is full of varieties and considerations, and it's very challenging. So have at it people - I love it!
Best regards,
Frank
0
Comments
Maybe know I can get some better grades on those Frankies!!!
Pass and Stow is the inscription on the middle of the bell. In most cases it is barely visible to the naked eye, but if you look at the first three pictures, you'll be able to see the inscription fairly well
Pass and Stow
Philada
MDCCLIII
Frank
Good "rant".
<< <i>As a former Frankie collector link . >>
That's a cool link - how long ago was that? The registry has certainly changed a lot since then!
Frank
And for those that say we see our coins better then PCGs thats just a big sack of doo-doo! I look for certian qualities and strike characteristics for all the years of Frankies and I make my raw purchases in this manner. I was fortunate enough to find 3 raw Frankies in Az that have ms66fbl written all over them. These coins have mint set toning and are no doubt high end gems. But we see what PCGs has to say about it. Some will say well, send them back, that sucks to have to do that. Some will say don't send them to PCGs then. No, I will still submit as I want to complete my set and even a 2nd set that I started in the Registry. Though my Mint State submissions haven't turned out the way I like, I still love PCGs and will keep submitting. I think the latest GEMs I found in Az will turn the tide, Unless I suffer my 1st bodybags! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Thanks for the tutorial. I guess I'm stuck in the middle since I think you should have to do minimal searching for the bell lines to call it FBL. When you've got to rotate the coin through 360° and use 10x magnification to find those bell lines it loses a little bit of the thrill
P.S. Great pictures!
<< <i>to rotate the coin through 360° and use 10x magnification to find those bell lines it loses a little bit of the thrill >>
Every FBL I have the lines are very visable to the naked eye.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Did you get your "2nd Edition" from Tomaska yet? I got mine; really not crazy about the style of the cover (published by DLRC), but I haven't read it word for word yet.
I did notice, it spends some time on the NGC Registry and none on the PGCS registry. It also specifies that NGC evaluates seven lines as opposed to PCGS evaluating the bottom three only. I guess that accounts for the disparity in the FBL pop numbers.
Glad you noted that David Hall didn't respond to the "Is PCGS policy acceptable knowing that NGC is more "scrutinous".
I'm glad you saw this post - I think it's a very appropriate question to ask. There is a lot of room for scrutiny on this subject.
Pmh1nic: While I agree with you that you shouldn't have to go searching for the FBL's in order to have them, I guess I'm also saying that just because they don't jump up at you and slap you it doesn't mean that they're not there. Somewhere in between is the answer, and for different people this is going to be the main determinant. I guess the other question for those of us that have collected the entire series is how much money are we willing to spend for how good a specimen. Everyone has their boundaries of comfort and so that's what you should shoot for. Personally I spent about $500 on the 53P and that's what I was comfortable with, given the overall quality of the coin. Some folks may want to spend considerably more to get killer lines, but then you have to wonder how much better the coin will be overall. As for the 51S, as I mentioned, that's going to be one of the ones I update one of these days because I just don't feel comfortable with the quality of that coin. However, at the time I thought it was a good deal at the price. One thing to note, on these marginal coins you DON'T have to use your imagination to see the bell lines. They are there - just somewhat faint. And this only applies to a couple of dates.
Frank
"just because they don't jump up at you and slap you it doesn't mean that they're not there."
In this area I'll be a masochist...hit me with your best shot
Actually I'm a value hunter with a limited budget so I've learn to compromise and be content with a good value. If the coin has eye appeal, nice toning and luster I'll settle for that over an FBL if the premium for the FBL is extreme.
<< <i>Actually I'm a value hunter with a limited budget so I've learn to compromise and be content with a good value. If the coin has eye appeal, nice toning and luster I'll settle for that over an FBL if the premium for the FBL is extreme. >>
You can find excellent values in ms64 FBL's..........
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Great Thread.
Something funny about us collectors ( speaking for myself) I have some FBL's in my stable. All PCGS in question, and I can not for the life of me, tell how they got the FBL designation. Some of the lines are as smooth as old Frankies head, all 7 of them. I am glad that I got them, but did not go out and buy them.
To be quite honest, I would never try to sell them as FBL's, no matter what PCGS says.
So here is the twist. When PCGS gives a gift, we Love them and then piss and moan about inconsistencies.
When PCGS is harsh, we scorn them, call them blind and resubmit till we get what we want dagnabit, or go broke trying to get what we want.
BD
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
First, years back PCGS did take into account, to a degree, the overall strike of a Franklin in determining FBL designation. Particularly, the upper bell lines at least had to be visible, unlike your 54S example. It also has no eagle wings, wavy fields, no hair detail, and an almost invisible "o" in "oF America". Not a FBL coin in my opinion either.
Second, PCGS now takes a coin out of FBL if there are marks on the lines. As you point out, the bell lines are a designation of die state and strike. Unless a mark is SO bad that it prevents a determination of complete strike, a mark should have no bearing on FBL designation.
I find Mr. Hall's comment insightful:
<< PCGS standards for FBL focus on the bottom lines...as I believe do most collectors. Since there is now some controversy about this, I'll contact major collectors and dealers and we'll re-examine our position on FBLs. We do this from time to time as market preferences change. But be aware that changes to policy are rare. >>
Is he strongly suggesting that PCGS market grades? If they find out that the collector and dealer market grades differently, they are going to change their policy? What ever happended to setting a standard and sticking with it...consistency? I hope to interpret his comment as saying that PCGS should review its policy/standard to ensure that its current grading practices have not unexpectedly deviated.
I think he will find that the market currently has a slightly different standard on FBL than does PCGS, and they are the old standards I mention above that PCGS used to have, and the same one you and I, as collectors, always have had and have now. I think the current PCGS standard is that they focus "soley" on the bottom bell lines.
Also, read the PCGS coin grading book regarding marks across the lines and conclude whether you believe they are currently following that standard. I think they are a bit tighter.
I do not believe that you can attribute policy/standard change at PCGS to market preferences as market preferences haven't changed on FBL standards as much as PCGS standards seem to have.
Thanks again, really enjoyed your post.
Lucy, is there any chance that you might be missing hairlines or wipe marks on the coins that are coming back much lower than you expected? I find them difficult to see, and they do count a lot.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
Thanks again for a great Post.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
<< <i>i have a ton of 1955 Franklin's in the bank vault along with a bunch of proofs. I will have to get to the bank when i start driving again and share some photo's. I know there are some realy neet Full Bells' in there >>
Kelso - by all means please do share - always great to see what finds folks get out here!
Frank
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
<< <i>Well if thats not the kettle calling the pot black! >>
Lucy - be nice - some people LIKE IKE!