An Open Question to the 'Modernistas'
Singapore
Posts: 578
WARNING: The following written words may be troubling to more sensitive Registry Forum participants.
OK. So I accept the fact (who really gives a hoo-ha what I accept, anyway) that there are many, many people who enjoy collecting, speculating, dealing, discussing, looking at, and presumably rolling in 'registry quality' modern coins. Incidentally, when I say modern coins I am referring to post 1964 clad coinage, post 1959 Lincolns, State Quarters, modern commemoratives, etc. - I have no idea what others consider to be modern coins and I really don't care.
I honestly don't understand why this facet of the hobby is interesting to some people or why these kinds of coins would command such astonishing prices. Without criticizing, demeaning or casting a dispersion upon anyone, and without anyone feeling that they need to defend anything they are doing to me (who the heck am I, anyway?) I'd simply like to understand why people are interested in collecting and spend huge amounts of money to acquire 'pop-top' modern coins.
If we consider for a moment owning the finest known 1806 Half Dollar (which I guess is probably an MS 66 or something), this seems to clearly have some meaning, as there are thousands of these old coins that are worn, damaged, ugly or otherwise corrupted such that the original design is no longer visible or at the very least is no longer attractive. Preserving a pristing, fabulous example of one of these old coins IS special simply in comparision to 99% of the survivors. In addition to which, you know that not more than perhaps 10 or so exist anywhere in the world in any condition even approaching a 66.
Skipping ahead to a 1999 state quarter, for example, finding a piece called MS70 might very well be rare, but one must consider the context where you probably can't find a single example thats less than AU58 anywhere (perhaps except for one somebody carved their initials into or something, but this would be rare) and MS65s must exist in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. So, why the fascination with an MS70 (or 69 or 68) when you can find literally thousands upon thousands upon thousands that, while they are not perfect, are likely to be so close as to be indistinguishable by anyone other than the guy who is charging you $10 to distinguish between them?
Now, in my short but turbulent tenure here, I keep seeing references to Wondercoin as some kind of authority in here (not self-proclaimed mind you - but rather annointed by others). I thought to ask him this question, but upon closer inspection I see that hes actually in the business of selling these coins, so I figure his view may be slightly biased.
So, can any collectors explain the fascination with this facet of the hobby?
Singapore
OK. So I accept the fact (who really gives a hoo-ha what I accept, anyway) that there are many, many people who enjoy collecting, speculating, dealing, discussing, looking at, and presumably rolling in 'registry quality' modern coins. Incidentally, when I say modern coins I am referring to post 1964 clad coinage, post 1959 Lincolns, State Quarters, modern commemoratives, etc. - I have no idea what others consider to be modern coins and I really don't care.
I honestly don't understand why this facet of the hobby is interesting to some people or why these kinds of coins would command such astonishing prices. Without criticizing, demeaning or casting a dispersion upon anyone, and without anyone feeling that they need to defend anything they are doing to me (who the heck am I, anyway?) I'd simply like to understand why people are interested in collecting and spend huge amounts of money to acquire 'pop-top' modern coins.
If we consider for a moment owning the finest known 1806 Half Dollar (which I guess is probably an MS 66 or something), this seems to clearly have some meaning, as there are thousands of these old coins that are worn, damaged, ugly or otherwise corrupted such that the original design is no longer visible or at the very least is no longer attractive. Preserving a pristing, fabulous example of one of these old coins IS special simply in comparision to 99% of the survivors. In addition to which, you know that not more than perhaps 10 or so exist anywhere in the world in any condition even approaching a 66.
Skipping ahead to a 1999 state quarter, for example, finding a piece called MS70 might very well be rare, but one must consider the context where you probably can't find a single example thats less than AU58 anywhere (perhaps except for one somebody carved their initials into or something, but this would be rare) and MS65s must exist in the hundreds of thousands if not millions. So, why the fascination with an MS70 (or 69 or 68) when you can find literally thousands upon thousands upon thousands that, while they are not perfect, are likely to be so close as to be indistinguishable by anyone other than the guy who is charging you $10 to distinguish between them?
Now, in my short but turbulent tenure here, I keep seeing references to Wondercoin as some kind of authority in here (not self-proclaimed mind you - but rather annointed by others). I thought to ask him this question, but upon closer inspection I see that hes actually in the business of selling these coins, so I figure his view may be slightly biased.
So, can any collectors explain the fascination with this facet of the hobby?
Singapore
Singapore
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
But, I think we would agree with each other that whatever anyone choses to collect is their personal decision and certainly not subject to unsolicited redicule by others - this comment not be directed at anyone.
Second, the very "availability" of modern coins that many people cite as a reason not to consider them rare, is also what attracts many collectors to them. Many collectors can never hope to own any of the true classic rarities...but they can collect what they perceive to be rare now, or hope will be rare in the future...it may not be true (then again it may be), but at least they feel they are collecting the best thing they can afford.
That being said, I still feel like many modern "rarities" are overpriced...and am guilty of paying too much for them myself time and again!
<< <i>I'm curious. What's your real handle here at the forums?
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ *hehe* You got me LMAO! *ahhh haaaa*
Or perhaps more precisely I have very little large amounts of money to spend on modern coins.
I do however collect them, so I'll tell you about that. I started out by speculating on them many
years ago. The mint started rotating their stocks of coin back in 1972 and it became apparent
that as the years went by the nicer coins in circulation would be continually worn out right along
with all the rest. Before this is was possible to get old uncs in circulation when the mint would release
a pallet or two of older coin which had been lost in storage. Also as the years went by it became
obvious that the hobby wasn't attracting enough "fresh blood" to replace the ranks of aging col-
lectors. This situation grew until collector populations began shrinking. It seemed obvious that
if the hobby were to survive then it would be necessary to attract significant numbers of new col-
lectors. There was no way of predicting the exact mechanics of this sea change but it did seem pro-
bable that it would involve a design change probably in the quarter (because of the bicentennial is-
sue). This led me to seek quarters in high grade. As the years went by these coins became most
intruiging to me. I studied them in some detail and found many interesting varieties and many more
condition rarities. There have also been tremendous lessons in statistics and metalurgy.
I had always assumed that when people started collecting coins again the hobby would be jubilant
so there would be no end to the encouragement that the newbies recieved. I also assumed that
the old timers would cast off their aversion to these coins and jump on the band wagon. Obviously
these assumptions were entirely off base.
There is still a chance that the hobby will begin to truly grow again, but at this point at least I've found
a hobby and some great coins to collect. The coins I do have left were purchased for so low a price
that getting my money back should be no problem. ...and it's still likely that some of the states quarter
collectors will become as intruiged by the old eagle reverse coins as I am.
It would be great to see some more collectors and registry set participants answer this question.
Then we can ask Singapore why he'd want to collect "ugly old coins".
<< <i>Yeah, that was an entirely too organized post for a newbie. >>
Monsta,
Particularly when considering his other threads.
Russ, NCNE
Singapore, some folks like to fuel the proverbial fire. But it seems like you're trying to turn the fire into an eternal flame. I'm curious, is there an agenda here?
So you don't misinterpret my position I'll tell you that I personally don't focus on collecting moderns. Although I own a few as part of some Type Sets. I just hate to see this issue being brought up again. The last time it resulted in the forum having a hissy fit.
It would be nice to get through the Holidays without another hissy fit.
IMO
BTW, signing off for the holidays. Best wishes for a prosperous and joyous new year.
Happy hunting,
Dick
That may disqualify me from responding, but the reason why I chose these coins is two fold;
(1) I like dollars and I started in reverse, working my way back trying to complete a denomination set. (This is going to be really expensive, but it'll last a lifetime)
(2) I'm an italian-american and I like Frank Gasparro, another italian-american, as a designer, hence the Ike and SBA sets.
If I had to collect state quarters, I'd probably do it with a twist just for the reasons you state. I know someone who is putting together a complete set of states with the caveat that they are all clipped. I find that interesting and challenging. And if you don't think that will be a prized collection, I invite you to find another or try it yourself.
However, without question, I agree that no one should focus entirely on Moderns. But it is a good starting point for newbies, like myself.
Michael
I won't defend (and in fact have criticized) some modern prices, but you need to take a closer look before you make the assumption that all modern coins approach perfection.
One might easily assume that would be true given the advance of technology over older coins, but it is simply not the case in many series/dates.
For a good example of that, grab some 1971-P or 1972-P Ike dollars the next time you're at a coin dealer, put them next to a common date gem Morgan (readily available and dirt cheap), and see if any of the Ikes look like "gem quality". Repeat the excercise 1000 times unsuccessfully, and you will then be in a better position to critique prices.
Why do I like modern coins? I don't know. It's one of the mysteries of the human psyche--why are some people fascinated by antique cars, or steam locomotives, or Depression glass, or anything else that other people couldn't care less about? Why does a man become infatuated with one woman but not another? These are fascinating questions and no one has a clue to the answers.
I can tell you, though, how--albeit not why--my interest in these coins evolved. From the time I began collecting coins some 40 years ago I always was interested in commemoratives, an interest that continued with the resumption of commemorative coinage in 1982. In the early '90s I began to notice the appearance of PCGS MS70 coins in Teletrade auctions at what seemed to me to be surprisingly reasonable prices for that lofty grade. I thought to myself, as long as I was collecting these coins anyway, wouldn't it be fun to try to build an all-PCGS MS70 modern commemorative set? I settled on the circulation strikes because their mintages were generally smaller than the proofs and I reasoned [entirely wrongly, as it has turned out] that MS70's would be much scarcer than PR70's. So, for me at least, concentrating on acquiring the highest grade in this series was entirely a whim, a lark. I never gave more than a passing thought to the numbers of these coins that were likely to be slabbed or to the investment potential; this simply was a fun thing to do. Back to the unfathomable psyche again.
What do I think of the current market? I was very fortunate to acquire the great majority of my collection of MS70's before widespread interest in the PCGS Registry began to take hold, and I could never have done it at current price levels. I myself had never even taken notice of the Registry before last year, and I believe that a Registry-inspired "feeding frenzy" is largely responsible for the rapid escalation in MS70 prices that has occurred over the past year or so. The prices currently being asked for some of these MS70 coins are, in my opinion, completely unreasonable. I recently have spurned several offers to sell me coins still needed for my set because of these exhorbitant prices, and I would like to see a united collector base put its collective foot down and do the same so that this market can cool off, but the deep-pockets contingent most likely will prevent that from happening.
That's my story, Singapore. Now do you understand, Broken Rubber?
(Forget it--that's the punch line from a very funny joke that's entirely inappropriate for this forum).
Good night, all, and happy Holidays!
Dell
The sky is falling I guess.
Re this 'too organized for a newbie' line of thought put forward by some, well, you've completely lost me on that one. No idea what that means, so I won't give it a whole lot of thought.
Cheers,
Singapore
Welcome, appreciate your insightful posts and your impeccable ability to resolve tough issues like coin collecting in the modern vs classic series.
What's next on your agenda ? Palestinian versus Israeli conflict ?
Enjoy your stay and don't worry, be happy.
I love Ike dollars and all other dollar series !!!
I also love Major Circulation Strike Type Sets, clad Washingtons ('65 to '98) and key date coins !!!!!
If ignorance is bliss, shouldn't we have more happy people ??
I figured as I was building a very finicky silver set, the moderns would also keep me busy when silver coins werent available. When I mean finicky -- I am very picky and have some fabulous coins in my collection. So I got interested in clad Washington's because of the state quarter program (I no longer have an interest in state quarters).
The Registry fueled my fire a bit or should I say a lot and my quest to find cheap MS67's was over. I was paying a premium for what I feel could be tomorrow's rarity. Just look at what those Walkers and SLQ's go for these days.
Frankly, with not that many people picking mint sets (which generally stink) and rolls, you would be surprised at how crappy the coins are struck. The high grades are elusive. If the pops dont hold, then so be it. But I am proud to own and built the collection I have.
Its not a function of how many coins were struck, but a matter of finding the highest quality. With moderns (except for commems) it is difficult to say the least, Rarities I dont know, but witht the high grades, its a matter of whether the pops will hold or not . As Supercoin pointed out these coins dont come easy.
WWQ
> Whoa! < It's like Deja-vu Dude!
When I got back into serious collecting, I didn't have a lot to spend. I completed all my 20th century circulated sets and added many 19th century circulated sets. I wanted more of a challenge that didn't cost too much. High quality moderns were perfect. Plenty of material is still available at reasonable costs and there are many condition rarities. I can submit my own and profit from the extras made from wading through lots of bulk material. With the registry sets fueling low pop moderns, I put few additional dollars into the hobby. I've made a couple purchases in the last few years using savings, but they've been higher priced non-modern keys.
perfectstrike
My two cents,
Dan
SAEs and SQs of all kind bring 'em on!
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
<< <i>I am into the moderns because I see myself as the sower. I buy the mint and proof sets and I "squirrel away as much "modern" coinage and paper money as comes into my hand. I feel that for the cost I am setting the best set for two maybe three generations down the line. Besides, my Dad collected peace, morgans, walkers (my favorite design) and I have these tucked away. They are not registry set material but to do a registry set of walkers I would have to shell out a small fortune. With the modern and near modern coins my investment is low and some day someone in my family will say "Gee I sure am glad grandpa saved these" >>
This is another reason that the apparent supply of modern material is
not really available to the market. Much of it is tied up and is unlikely
to come back on the market unless there are dramatically higher prices.
With these moderns one can't merely look at the mintages to get an
idea of availability because many are destroyed and many are "removed"
from the market. In the past coins were saved merely because they were
coins, they contained precious metal and were a store of wealth in good
times and bad. The modern coins have mostly just been considered poc-
ket change for a third of a century, it's a wonder any better pieces have sur-
vived.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
anyone who tries to argue this point, that high grade moderns are a good "investment" is usually battered with the "millions produced defense" and is in for an uphill fight, but the truth is that there are some modern issues that are difficult in grades as low as MS65-66. others aren't collected widely because they are assumed to be common. many are easy to find grade-wise up to a certain point, say MS66, but than a wall seems to go up. proofs from the SMS years through 1975-76 are pretty dismal and not easy to locate past PR68 with nice cameo. the 40% kennedy's, which many see as commonplace, now reside as SAE's thanks to the Hunt's. i could go on, but i think you catch my drift. just like any other area or era...............
i don't spend my dollars on the ultra-high-grade and over-priced moderns, but i don't walk around with blinders on either.
al h.
are some common moderns and there are some uncommon moderns. One dare
not mention the investment potential or performance of moderns or there will be
a chorus of modern slamming.
As time goes on many of these coins will prove themselves. It will be impossible
for the naysayers to make any valid points when even undergrades are shown to
be scarce.