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Thoughts on PR-70DC's

Who's buying? Anyone? Does anyone think these are a good investment right now?

From 1999 to about two weeks ago, these were non-existent, except in rare circumstances. Now perusing the pop. reports for proof dated 1999-2002:

Cents -- 2 graded
Nickels -- 5 graded
Dimes -- 4 silver, 4 clad
Quarters -- 28 silver, 35 clad
Halves -- 1 silver
Dollars -- 3 graded
Silver Bullion -- 7 graded
Gold Bullion -- 9 graded
Platinum Bullion -- 5 graded
Commems -- 29 graded

While I don't have the pops from 30 days ago, it is safe to say that a majority of these 132 PR-70's were graded in the last two or three weeks.
Keith ™

Comments

  • BNEBNE Posts: 772
    I am waiting, Keith. And gritting my teeth about some past purchases. I don't like being whipsawed by changes in grading standards, even though this one was admittedly overdue.image
    "The essence of sleight of hand is distraction and misdirection. If smoeone can be convinced that he has, through his own perspicacity, divined your hidden purposes, he will not look further."

    William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night
  • BNE,

    Based on what David Hall suggested, there has not been a change in standards, except that the graders were not giving 70's to coins that deserved them in the past. So there are definitely some 70's out there in 69 holders that have been slabbed over the last couple of years.
    Keith ™

  • BNEBNE Posts: 772
    Well I, for one, will be relieved if it turns out that any significant "loosening" is limited to giving the nod to a couple of modern PR69's.image
    "The essence of sleight of hand is distraction and misdirection. If smoeone can be convinced that he has, through his own perspicacity, divined your hidden purposes, he will not look further."

    William S. Burroughs, Cities of the Red Night

  • This subject is most disturbing...

    I sold a whole slew of PCGS PR70DCAM coins a couple months ago.

    For once in my life, I got the timing right.

    It's most disturbing though, that due to an arbitrary decision on the
    part of the powers who be, how much value can disappear overnight.
    most of the PCGS PR70DCAM coins I sold went for over $1000. Today
    I wouldnt pay half that for them.

  • My strategy will be to submit my best 69DCAMS for regrade and see if I get any. If I get all I need, I will be satisfied. If I don't get any regrades, or just one or two, I plan to wait for at least a year to buy more, to see how the market changes. On one hand, increased supply will act against prices. On the other hand, collectors who previously thought they couldn't afford them might step in acting to increase prices. I currently just own five: one SBA, one clad Kennedy, one clad Washington, one clad Roosie, and one Jeff. Prices ranged from $300 to $600. I would like to add the following to my modern proof type set: zinc Lincoln, bronze Lincoln, silver Roosie, silver Washington, silver Kennedy, both statehoods, 3 bullion pieces, 3 commems, IKE.

    Greg
  • I will still buy pr70 silver washingtons 1964 and earlier. cheers, alan mendelson
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭


    << <i>My strategy will be to submit my best 69DCAMS for regrade and see if I get any. >>



    Ditto.

    Russ, NCNE
  • pontiacinfpontiacinf Posts: 8,915 ✭✭
    im with typetone
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • StoogeStooge Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Isn't it in our "Coin-collecting blood" to want the highest possble grade? I don't plan on spending $1000.00 + for any PRF70DCAM Statehood quarters. There are still 6 yrs to go and if PCGS is starting to grade 70's now, what is to say that there won't be 50+ 70's for all of the quarters. It will be a waiting game for me. i may just submit a couple myselfimage

    Paul.

    Later, Paul.
  • fcloudfcloud Posts: 12,133 ✭✭✭✭
    I just hope they didn't mess with the specs. If they are simply giving out more 70s than it will effect the entire graded coin market.

    There is nothing wrong with giving a coin that deserves it the grade, but if they are saying there are 69s that deserved the grades, than they have have be doing a poor job of grading in the past. It is one of those things where they were doing their job right then or they are doing the job right now, and in any case their are misgraded coins.

    image

    President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay

  • CocoinutCocoinut Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've never bought a PR70 coin, and probably never will. What's the difference between a super-nice PR69DCAM from 6 months ago and today's PR70DCAM? Quality-wise, nothing, but the PR70DCAM's are going to carry hefty price tags compared to the 69's. I'm glad I don't have any registry sets where the post-1960 coins that are likely to grade PR70 will have any significant impact on the ranking of a set. Can we now look forward to dealers asking premium prices for PR69DCAM's that they feel should grade as 70's? It seems like dealers and PCGS both stand to make a lot of money from the loosening of standards. This might be a good time for PCGS to reinstitute the practice of paying for old inserts; they'll get a ton of them for PR69DCAM's that people crack out in hopes of an upgrade, and we'd see a dramatic decrease in the population of PR69DCAM's.

    Jim
    Countdown to completion of my Mercury Set: 2 coins. My growing Lincoln Set: Finally completed!
  • pontiacinfpontiacinf Posts: 8,915 ✭✭
    LETS KEEP THIS UP HERE, WANNA KEEP ANY OF MY FRIENDS FROM PAYING ABSURD PRICES FOR MODERN day oops(soory caps) pr70dcams that suddenly PCGS feels really exist...we said this for years...looks like Rick actually went south cause he knows at least one other grading service knew this...

    heck of a way to kill a market
    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • RussRuss Posts: 48,515 ✭✭✭
    Well, I just finished going through every one of my 69DCAMs. I initially narrowed it down to eight possibles, than went through and polished the scratches off the slabs so I could get a better view. After going over them again, I ended up with three that I think have a legitimate shot at the 70 grade. Interestingly, all three were slabbed during the "we don't make 70s" era. Nothing from the earlier period is up to the grade.

    Those three, along with a couple 68's that I think should be 69's, will be on their way to PCGS first thing in the morning.

    Russ, NCNE
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm confused about the first numbers you put up. What period of time do they cover? I haven't noticed a great surge in PR70s in the last three weeks. I'm still buying a few. PM me if you "want to bail out on the way down."
    Doug
  • Hi Guys,

    Take a look in this Ebay item.

    DH buying a PR70

    Please your thoughts.

    Edson
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My two "guesses" as to what is going on with DH and the PR70.

    1. This is either the nicest proof silver eagle DH has ever seen. If so, you will see this on DHRC at a substantial markup before being sold or going into his private collection.

    -- OR --

    2. DH wants this coin off the market, and the pop for this coin will go back to a pop 1.


    Personnally, I would bet on number 1. Of course this could be a way of DH showing his support for PR70's for political purposes, but I don't think he really needs to do that in order to preserve the status of a PCGS PR70.
    Doug
  • I'm confused about the first numbers you put up. What period of time do they cover? I haven't noticed a great surge in PR70s in the last three weeks. I'm still buying a few. PM me if you "want to bail out on the way down."

    Doug,

    Until the first of December, PR-70DC's dated 1999-2002 were virtually non-existent. The numbers that I put up are coins that as of the date of posting, had been graded as such covering that four year span.
    Keith ™

  • Hi, I'm new to posting so let me introduce myself. I'm John Rothans, I'm the head coin trader and buyer for DHRC (David Hall Rare Coins). I've been buying and selling rare coins for over 15 years with David Hall. As to the question about DHRC buying PR70DCAM coins on Ebay. Here is the reason, we are very strong buyers of 70 material on the open market. I actualy have several dealers who offer me material as I'm a top buyer of all modern coins either graded 69 or 70. I have a very large want list of people looking for these types of coins. So frankly when I saw the coin up on Ebay for at a level much less than what I would pay another dealer I decided to bid.

    Again I have a big appitite for coins so please let me know if you have anything you want to sell, or if you are looking for anything special.

    Thanks

    John Rothans
    John Rothans
    David Hall Rare Coins
    (800) 759-7575
  • Hi John. Welcome to the forums.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hi John, and welcome to the boards. I'll send a PM.

    Doug
    Doug
  • John,

    Welcome to Forum. I personally want testimony that, after had a good deals with high value coins, you are a reference as a dealer, and good part of my set was build with your help.
    I put the information about DH buying PR70's because I believe that make strong the market of these top pop coins.

    Best Regards and Happy New Year.

    Edson
  • Hi John

    I believe the main coin that was being referred to by me was the statehood proofs...way to early for that game to be suggesting one in particular (kentucky) be worth 1100 when its pop went from 0-5 overnight...and the pops are progressing....theres plenty of 70's already out there hiden in 69 slabs....mitchs wonder set of statehood cams all should be 70's. Im just not sure I want crack out any on the chance I wreck one. One cant be upgraded unless taken out of the slab so its a kinda push issue.

    image

    Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    With the technology of minting being what it is now, there are almost certain to be a certain percentage of every early die run that qualifies legitimately for 70s (which I understand to be no visible flaws under certain magnification, plus aesthetic considerations). The bigger money would flow towards those modern issues where the die condition, for whatever reason, is poorer for some reason. And with the standardized and improved production technologies, you'd expect such exceptions to be quite rare. Witness all the legtimate 70s occurring in the West Point commem issue.

    I expect people will be collecting 70s in the future out of an interest in having series of the best-looking coins possible. While the number of 70s appear to be rising again (to realistic levels given the technology, IMO), and while the prices on them are likely to come down from the speculative heights they have been, I also expect that as a consequence, 70s collectors will expand as a subspeciality in coin collecting, and will ultimately support the prices.
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just bought four more PR70DC Roosevelts. One is a pop 1, and I paid dearly for it. One is a pop 35, and I still paid several hundred dollars for it. Even if ALL of the modern proof 70DCs go up in population to 35 and higher, they will still trade for several hundred dollars. There is just too much demand nowdays for 70's. I really don't expect the pop 1 to hold it's value, but if it does I will be pleasantly surprised. If you want to maintain your value in the 70DC market, stick with the pop 35's. They are as solid as anything else on the market, and will be as long as there is a public competition for sets.

    These four should bump me to the number 2 spot (White Fang) in the series. My objective with most series is to build a high grade, interesting set, which is pleasing to me -- and me only. For the Roosevelt PR70DC set, my goal is to have the finest set available. I want my WGPA to equal that little grade PCGS puts at the top of the set page under "highest possible." The stopper for the set for me right now is the 1975 which is a pop 1 and I don't have it. Likewise, no one else is going to have it either until someone makes a 1998, because I have the pop 1. That is a lot of fun to me, and will be a challenge to complete as pops continue to move. Many others are playing the game as well.

    For those who scoff at playing the Registry game, I have also sold both of my PCGS 1936 PR66red Brilliant Lincolns. I enjoy holding the number 2 spot under Stewart, but I have a 1936 PR66CAM which happens to be in an NGC holder even though it is a superior coin. I'll ask PCGS to reconsider the crossover at FUN. I put this in here to say that it's not all about puffery and ego. For the Lincolns, I want the finest regardless of plastic, and my status in the number 2 spot is secondary to that.

    People will play the Registry game as long as PCGS provides the opportunity. Therefore, there will always be a large market for PR70's, and they will command a 10x or more premium over PR69's.

    Just my OWN opinion. You never have to agree.
    Doug
  • The pop of pr70dcam silver eagles has gone from 11 in oct 01, to about 40 now. Not counting the delay in pcgs pop posts.
    Merc collector.
  • Doug:

    Good post.

    A 10x premium from 69DC to 70DC seems about right to me. However some of the pieces are seemingly going for more, like the ASE or state quarters for example. I would say that greater than 10X is justified for specific years where the minting quality was lower. A date/mintmark collector like yourself probably has the best idea of which years qualify for a particular series. Do you have a view on the statehood quarter premiums?

    Greg
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks Greg. I have no idea about statehood quarters or ASE's. I've never collected them, or followed the trends. For dimes, I can tell you that two of my pickups were 1973 and 1974 PR70DC's. One is a pop 6 and one is a pop 7. You won't see the floodgates open on those two dates. I'm gambling on the 1998. There will be more made, it's only a matter of time. I chose to get my 70 now though for my collection instead of waiting.

    By the way, the 79 and 81 Type 1 is harder to make in 70, than the Type 2 (clear), which flips the values from normal grades where the Type 2 is considerably more valuable than Type 1. This is the type of nuance that collectors of a particular series look at. I have both Type 2's in 70, and neither Type 1 in 70.
    Doug
  • STEWARTBLAYNUMISSTEWARTBLAYNUMIS Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭

    Doug,

    When you say 10x the value of a proof 69 D Cam is the value of a Proof 70 D Cam,are we talking Roosies or Lincolns?

    As you know I collect Proof Lincolns.I need a 1995 in Proof 70 D Cam.I bought my Proof 69 D Cam for $25
    At the last Heritage SIGNATURE sale in Santa Clara was a Proof 70 D Cameo.On the internet the coin reached $2,000.During the floor bidding it went to over $2,500.That is 100 times the value of a Proof 69 D Cam !!!!!!! It has a pop 11

    Stewart

    ps Now I know why you stopped in 1958
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,974 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Stewart, I know exactly what you mean!!!!!!

    Lincolns are a more celebrated series than Roosevelts, and that is probably why they trade higher on the whole. I do not own one single slabbed proof Lincoln later than 1958. So, I really can't speak to the Lincoln Proofs after 58.


    What I was saying was that AFTER the pop settles at 40 or so, I think 70's will still trade at 10x 69's, i.e. $29 vs. $290.

    The roosevelts I bought were:

    1973 Pop 7: $1,295 (This is the first year of a clad 70DC) (Hard to make any more) A good value.
    1974 Pop 6: $1,095 (This one is equally hard to find or make) A good value.
    1978 Pop 19: $475 (This is probably about average in today's market) A good value.
    1992 Pop 33: $350 (About where the market is going to settle when 70s hit pops of 30-40.) A good value.
    1998 Pop 1: $1,750 (This was rediculous, but I wanted the coin! I'll never get my money out of this one.) . . . . . A TOTAL EGO PURCHASE!!!

    Hope this helps others learn about the value (or lack thereof) of PR70DC's. Your experience and series may vary!

    Doug
  • relayerrelayer Posts: 10,570

    I sold my last one. Now I have to go make some moreimage
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    My posts viewed image times
    since 8/1/6
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ..........PR70DCAM's are a real enigma to me. logic says that there should be coins which merit that grade and at the same time it's sensible to me that none get slabbed. and don't get me started on pricing.

    with modern proofs i would imagine a grader starting at 70 and working his way down the grade scale, first examining for absolutey even frost on both sides and then noting any hairlines or imperfections. a frost break or weakness and the coin shouldn't get the grade. ditto any marks or hairlines. the thing is, we expect graders to do that in a short period of time------10 seconds------and then when we get the or buy a coin we whip out the 15X loupe and examine it till we find something wrong!!! i wonder how it can be both ways.

    i find that a good strategy for me is to collect a grade that is right below where the price takes off unless the highest grade is still reasonable. it makes no sense to me to pay under $30 for a 69 and upwards of $500 for a 70. that's the highest form of buying plastic that i can come up with right off the bat. maybe i'm missing something. and considering what many suspect as shifting standards or pop limiting along with the possibility of a coin changing in the holder it seems risky at best. good luck to all who pursue that avenue.

    al h.image
  • BearBear Posts: 18,954 ✭✭
    Keets - Its only money, relax.image
    There once was a place called
    Camelotimage
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