DDO 1883 Shield Nickel?

RKKay

Anyone ever heard of or seen one?

Coiniac

Haven't heard of any. The Cherrypicker's guide shows several repunched and overdat varieties.

RKKay

Thanks. This has clear doubling of the motto, and little, if any, evidence of other doubling.

coppercoins

There are a number of doubled dies in the shield nickel series - whether or not yours is one depends on whether you know the difference between the appearance of hub doubling as compared to die deterioration doubling, which can be rather deceptive to a novice. I don't know the series myself, I just know that there are a number of doubled dies in it.

RKKay

I have no knowledge of doubling at all. I give up.

lathmach

Yes, it is a R1 variety with the doubling showing above the annulet.

Ray

RKKay

In other words, such doubling is worthless, right?

lathmach

Can you post a picture?

Ray

RKKay

I could, but I'm still learning the camera, and it shows nothing.

coppercoins

More than likely a camera alone will not do the trick. You probably need a microscope. I could look at it and photograph it for you at no cost, but I could not attribute it - I don't collect nickels. At least a quality microphoto would get you somewhere in your quest. Just PM me if you want to send it. I'm currently running two to three days on single coins.

dorkkarl

my take on the subj: the mint had great difficulty striking shield nickels due to the hard planchets causing rapid erosion of the dies. i've studied these quite a bit informally, & i bet there will never be a comprehensive listing of die varieties, etc. just way too many of them! what is really rare is an unc shield nickel with absolutely no signs of die erosion, recutting of details or buffing of the dies. a great and horribly underrated series, which is a shame. it is an attractive design imo.

K S

dorkkarl

should have mentioned: it is very easy to mistake recutting for double-dies.

K S

wayneme

http://home.pacifier.com/~howards/1883_2/1883_2.html
try this

lathmach

The web site you listed, Link Is to the five 1883/2 overdates.
The doubled die is a different variety than the overdates.

Ray

darktone

RKKay, I might be able to help you get a close up picture of your coin. Here's how I take shots like this close-up picture. I have a Sony mavica and I can take pretty good coin pictures but I was unable to zoom in until I experimented with a loupe taped to the end of the camera lens- it takes just a few seconds to do and the results are great as you can see from the above picture. It sounds crude but it does work! mike

coppercoins

UPDATE:

RKKay was generous enough to grace me with the presence of his outstanding example of his PCGS PR66 1883 nickel for photography services. This is the most beautiful five cent piece I have ever seen, and I have seen many.

Unfortunately I see no signs of hub doubling on the obverse of this coin, the ultimate purpose of his submitting it to me. What I see, instead, is what appears to be a Longacre style doubling most prevelantly found on Indian Head cents. Since I do not study nickels, it will have to be up to the judgement of those who see the images to tell for sure what is on the coin, but I can rule out hub doubling with relative certainty.

First of all, the pure eye candy of the whole coin image. The photo is a bit large, but it is well worth its size:



Moving on to the diagnostics of what I found on the coin:

First, the date area - I saw nothing resembling doubling or repunching in this area, but thought I should take a photograph of it anyway for those who do study the series. Perhaps I could have missed something...

1883 proof 5 cent date area

Second, the doubling itself, in the area of "IN GOD." Apparently either re-engraving doubling or something resembling it...

1883 proof 5 cent showing "IN GOD"

I will hold the coin for a couple of days awaiting responses and / or requests for further diagnostic images. Congratulations, RKKay, on owning such a beautiful piece of history. I am sorry I cannot add that you have a doubled die.

Edited to add : The doubling seen in the photo of "IN GOD" extends throughout the motto. There are no additional signs of doubling anywhere else on the obverse of the coin. The reverse, although stunning (especially under a microscope), shows nothing out of what I would consider the ordinary.

leothelyon

Chuck,
Again, great work! I couldn't see it until the blowups. I can't add anything other then someone really botched up the words on the die or hub of IGWT and must of did a repair or recut the words a second time. I'm just guessing here.

Leo

coppercoins

Thanks Leo...

The botch job would have to have been on the die since there is "extra metal" on both sides of the letters on the coin. This would require adding metal to a hub, which is most unlikely. My vote is that metal was removed from the die, either through recutting as you said, or through some other odd method.

It is very doubtful that this is an example of die deterioration doubling, since die deterioration would show in other areas of the design and none of the design would have the needle sharp crispness that is characteristic of a proof and existent on this coin. Not only that, but metal flow lines would assuredly be present on the die, and this coin has fields so slick clean, a flea could ice skate on them. Die deterioration is out.

It unfortunately also cannot be hub doubling (a doubled die) because the doubling not only exists on both sides of the letters, which is very uncharacteristic of a doubled die, but is also not in form with the letters it doubles...also uncharacteristic of a doubled die. Furthermore, there is no "notching" present at the corners of the letters, which would almost certainly be present if this were a doubled die.

I don't know if Longacre doubling is typical for shield nickels, especially the proofs, but that's exactly what this looks like to me. I have seen it hundreds of times on Indian Head cents through the years. I hope Dorkkarl chimes in with his opinion.

dorkkarl

hey coppercoins, glad to chime in, thanks for the pm.

for those who don't know, "longacre doubling" occurs when the date or lettering of a coin shows what looks like "outlining", sometimes "blobbed" looking. as i mentioned before, it can easily by mistaken for doubling, but is really a result of die-erosion & subsequent recutting of the lettters/numbers to strengthen the die for future striking.

the coin shown here displays heavily distorted longacre doubling, which is found on many, many 19th century coins, including cents, nickels, 3cn's, & gold coins, especially $3 (in my experience).

from my observations, such defects are particularly prevalanet on 3cn's, shield nickels & early lib-nicks as (my theory) the planchets were so hard they tended to wear down the dies rapidly & rather rudely. proof dies would be particuarly prone to this problem, due to the multiple strikings under increased pressure.

on modern coins, what may occasionally look like "longacre doubling" is likely class-vii doubling, also known as "modified hub doubling", where multiple hubs were used to create a die, each hub w/ lettering slightly offset in comparison to the other hub(s), so "thickening" might appear on each side of the letters/numbers.

this is not my field of expertise, & i'd strongly encourage an expert's opinion on this, hopefully i pointed you in the right direction though!

1 quick note, since i got on a tangent of 3cn's & $3 gold, did you ever notice that both coins died out in 1889? i've always assumed it was due to discontinued use of 3c stamps. anyone know for sure?

K S

edited to add link to an image of typical "longacre doubling" for your comparison

Conder101

Longacre doubling is very common on Shield nickels especially on IGWT. I do differ with Dorkkarl on one point though. From my experiences I find that Longacre doubling is found on EARLY die states and becomes less prevalent as the die wears and goes through subsequent repolishings etc. At one time I was researching die varieties on shield nickels. I would find examples of the same variety but in different die states. In the early states the outlines around the letters have sharp straight edges where they meet the field of the coin (Like the example shown on the link in Dorkkarl's post.) As the die wears the edges of the outlines become weak, uneven, blurred, and may fade into the field so that there is no clearly defined edge. On late states after heavy flow lines and cracks are developing the outlines are often gone completely or only present in a few areas around the letters.

This would also fit with the proof dies. These are dies that normally are new and they are used for a very short time. If the Longacre doubling was a late state phenomenum it would not likely have the time to occur before the proof dies were retired. On the other hand if it is found on early states then it would be likely to be found on the proof dies. The reason it is present is because the die has not been complete ground to the proper level. A little more polishing of the fields of the die would have removed the roughness around the letters.

coppercoins

With three different people heading right toward Longacre doubling, that's what I'm sure the coin is. The only reason I hesitated for a bit before calling the shot myself is that I rarely see shield nickels and don't understand them nearly as well as I do copper - basically I'm a fish out of water with this metal, so I didn't want to make any rash judgements based on my knowledge of copper.

I have been asked outside the forum what the coin looks like in person. I'll try to describe it in detail. It's stunning. There.

Really, the coin has a very sharp brilliant finish, heading ever so slightly into satiny. It's not the mirror flash-like appearance you would expect with many proofs, but for this coin that actually adds to its appeal. The toning is relatively apparent, the colors dance out at you, but the photos really enhance it a bit. It's not quite as "toned out" as the picture makes it look. The colors are all there, but the definition of the edges of the colors and the white "freckling" on the shield are not very apparent through the luster. The photo I took cuts out the luster and takes a photo more of the color and detail of the coin itself. That's about as good as I can get it.

RKKay

If anyone is curious, this coin came from Mike Printz at Whitlow. Mike is a great guy and a straight shooter.

bigtonydallas

I agree that this looks like Longacre doubling. Beautiful coin anyway!!!!

dorkkarl

<< <i>I find that Longacre doubling is found on EARLY die states and becomes less prevalent as the die wears and goes through subsequent repolishings etc. >>

hey conder, can't say i would disagree, but i was really specifically referring to the heavy "blobbing" of this particular example. thought that an early die-state would not show the doubling as a "blob", but more of the crisp doubling typically seen. but i like your comments & will add to my notes.

regarding the "proof" characteristics, i and some friends once had the extraordinary pleasure of removing three 1883 nickels (shield, n/c, w/c) from their original packaging, & each coin was stunning to an extent i couldn't possibly explain, the n/c in particular. it the coins literally "glowed" w. original patina, having never been exposed to the environment in 100 years.

we would have preferred to leave the coins in the packaging of course, but each of the packages had been stapled, & the objective was to remove the coins from the proximity of the oxidizing steel of the staples.

i will not name names, but the coins went to one of the "big boys" (dealer), & w/out a doubt ended up slabbed

K S