ZERO for 42..one for my last 124 on upgrades and crosses !

PQpeace

I just went zero for 42 again on some very hot PQ dollars.
Last time I was zero for 40..sent those back to Rick and he agreed that zero for 40 was correct..BS..he did not want to admit that his graders screwed up !
and the time before I went one for 42.
These are different coins..some very choice PQ morgans and Peace dollars..
All the pros" have been telling me for years that it is a GAME..I didn't want to believe it...but it is true...
It is a freakin game to get more $$$ out of us.I think I am just about to start another hobby..
Wait til I talk to MR. HALL and send these back to him..
I have purposely bought other pcgs overgraded dollars just to show him how PQ mine really are.
I am too pissed off to deal with it now..but will when I cool down.
If I crack my last 42 pq coins,they will come back either in a body bag or one grade lower..
I am screwed for now..
more news when I feel up to it..
Larry

Placid

That sucks

scher

I feel your pain Larry..
Bruce Scher

darktone

WOW- thats a staggering amount of cash to spend and only get one coin to upgrade or cross! I am not even going to try and figure out what that costed but I don't think I would try it again. I am very sorry you had such bad results. mike

clevegreg

Certainly very sorry to hear of this...not suprised which is even worse

Greg

FrattLaw

Unbelievable is the only word that comes to mind.

Michael

kieferscoins

I tend to be the opposite side of this, and don't really want to get everyone flamed up, but every coin can't upgrade. 1 out of 40 is good, and maybe PCGS feels they are a strong grade, but not enough there to be one grade higher. Why does everyone think half their coins sould upgrade?

Cameron Kiefer

IndianHeadMan

Buy the coin not the plastic. If you play the game it will burn you. If they consistanly over grader your coin would you be mad? NO

MadMarty

That's not what I wanted to hear, I have 40 Morgans at PCGS right now. I was really happy with the first order. We shall see...

shirohniichan

Ouch! That makes me glad I didn't renew my membership!

benloe

Sure seems like it is near impossible to get a cross or upgrade. Maybe I picked
the right time to send in my coins for a regrade. Hoping for at least one point lower
on all of them. I would rather have a refund from pcgs than to keep trying to sell these
overgraded dogs.

vam44

It`s like that commercial where the guy has "reached the end of the internet, there is no more!".
Have we reached the end of the grading GAME, everything is maxed out?
I think not, maybe our patience for this GAME has reached the end!

gmarguli

I honestly think there is some sort of game played with regrades. The graders have to know they are regrades (not grade guarantee reviews) and are probably hard asses on them.

I wonder what happens if on regrade a coin is "downgraded" by the grader. Does PCGS put it back at the original grade? I'm not talking about grade review, but regrade.


I think I am just about to start another hobby..

Perhaps just a different grading service?

segoja

Feel the pain. Guess I've been lucky on crossovers. Batting about .600, but getting PCGS graded coins to do something, either up or down, has been .0000.

Sent 7 super High grade Ikes in. 3 of them 67's, 2 of which I wanted downgraded. The other 4 66's blew away each of the 67's. All coins stayed the same grade. now if they were suppossedly covered up, there is no way they would grade the coins the way they did. How can that be. The Ike series I know very very well, and can grade the coin much better than PCGS eveer dreamed about, so how could I be that bad on all 7 coins??? Makes you wonder how the game is played.

KlectorKid

<< <i>I think I am just about to start another hobby >>

Come on... you would stop collecting because u cant get a differant number on a peice of plastic?

kranky

<< <i>I think I am just about to start another hobby..
Larry >>



Larry,

Maybe it would be beneficial not to submit any coins for a while, if the results are making you that upset. I've never submitted a coin, and I enjoy the hobby a lot! I hope you feel better once a little time has passed.

PQpeace

Hi Guys,
I will start with Cameron....alot more responses after dinner.

Cameron et al........

I should have told you guys a bit more about myself and my dollars before I made that post...
for those who don't know me:

Have been collecting Morgan and Peace dollars since I was 5 years old.I am 48 now..
I have been attending auctions since I was 9 years old.
I have been to hundreds and hundreds of shows since about 1966.
I am telling the world that I am expert,but have had my hands on tens of thousands of raw and slabbed dollars.
When I worked in a coin shop from 10-12 years old ..we used to kick around bags of unc dollars...they were $1050.00 a bag at the time..
In the last 5-6 years when I decided to spend real money on coins..thanks Laura ! , I have looked at thousands more pcgs and ngc slabs.
The point I am trying to make here..is I know these two series of coins.
There are about 95 pcgs 1921p peace dollars in ms66 at this time.
I have seen at least 30 of them if not more..
I have looked at hundreds of ms65 coins.
Do you guys think I should know what a 21p peace dollar looks like by now ?
I can grade that date in my sleep by feel
I have owned 35 of them at the same time !! who else is nuts enough to be able to say that !
Because I only look at 97 plus 24 different coins..and look at EVERY single one at each show..I think I have the hang of what the coins I collect should look like.

I only buy the top of the grade of the coins I collect.
I have owned 2 ms65 21p's that are better than 27 of the 30 ms66's that I have seen.
That can only mean 2 things..
both of my 65's belong in a 66 holder,or at least 27 of the 66's belong in a 65 holder..
I have no problem if I buy all these 66's and have them regraded to a 65 and have pcgs write me a check for 4500.00 on each one they put back in a 65 holder..
or better off..just put my 65 in a 66 holder where it belongs and I will be happy.
This is how I go about buying every coin in my set.

In morgans..I have looked at dozens of ms68 1880s 81s,and 82s's.
I know what a 68 should look like..
I have a few 67's that are better than 90% of the 68's out there.

Here is the way the game is played..
I am learning from the best of the best here.

You send in 42 pq dollars and get 3 upgrades..
you have to send in that many,because if you don't..you will probably get zero each time..
PCGS gets 30 bucks a pop here..
3 months down the line..you send in 42 more..some the same ,and some different..you again get 2 or 3..
1200 more bucks..
if pcgs were to upgrade them all in one shot,there goes the money tree,and the stock goes down a few more cents.
I know guys who send in 100's at a time all the time..legalized gambling is what it is.
I don't want all 42 of these to be upgraded..that is foolish..but at least 15 of them are 100% no question coins.
I will have to keep feeding the money pit before I get what I want..just the right coin in the right holder..
for those who say I should try another grading service ?? Greg !
I am sure I can get alot of these in NGC holders with no problem..but then I can's sell them !!
90% of dollar collectors want pcgs only..
I can buy 1921p's in 65 all day for between 1000.00 and 1200.00..
who wants a 64 in a 65 holder ?? not me..
A real 21p in 65 will sell for 1700-1800 without hesitation..
that is why I don't go to NGC.
Maybe it will change someday,but for now,I need liquidity..and NGC IS NOT THE PLACE for me.

ok..my son wants me to help put up the christmas lights..so I will be back in a bit to hear from my buddies again.
Thanks for reading.
Larry

tradedollarnut

Larry - I saw your thread about becoming a dealer. Welcome to the real world!

You are now saying the things that Laura says all the time to me. I don't have any advice on how to play the game better. The only advice I have is that sometimes it just doesn't matter what the holder says - the coin is worth what it's worth. Yes, the holder has some power ($$), but in the end the quality of the coin is what matters more!

coppercoins

Threads like this make me glad I don't play this game. A company grades coins (not usually accurately) gets a reputation for being the best there is (none are all that good and the decent ones are overpriced) at what they do, then sits on the hog bleeding funds out of their cash-cow customers, and people still support it. Amazing.

PQpeace

TDN,
Thanks for your coment..I always go for quality for my collections.I am very picky..ask Laura and George !

most dealers don't really care what the coin looks like..all they are concerned about is if they have a live buyer for their coins.

Since I am a collector first,and maybe a dealer someday..all the coins I will sell have to pass my standards..that is the difference of how I will be dealing compared to 99% of the plastic dealers out there.
Back to dinner !
More fun later..

and yes..I do have 3-4 overgraded pcgs coins in my set.
Those I am not happy about..someday pcgs will write me some big fat checks for those mistakes..........unless

How about my 1882o in ms66 that is a 5000.00 coin..but is really a 65..
I have a 65 that is really a 66++
I bought the 66 just to show Rick that my 2 coins are in the wrong holders..then Rick bailed on me..
Anyway..that 82o is a 100% lock 66 if the other one is a 66..
Larry

Loki

Ever read the book "So Where are the Customer's Yachts?". If you do, I guarentee you will think twice about sending all that money to PCGS again. Personally, if I had that money to "gamble" with, I would go to Vegas. Much better odds and the drinks are on the house!

Bulldog

Looks like to me, that Plastic can cost lots of Money, Ajada, pain, & regret.

Larry no doubt, you are a sharp cookie on these coins, but the ones in power and with the key to make you feel good, think differently!

Bulldog

Legend

Larry,

If it makes you feel any better, two fo the best "eyes" (dealers) in the biz just went 10 for 270 combined (and these guys DO buy nice coins)! A couple of us dealers think it must be that time of the month for PCGS (how else could you explain it).

Also, I just saw a HORRIBLE 1839 Gobrecht Dollar (JUST MY opinion) overgraded by TWO points by NGC. They seem to be a bit too gracious-and it certainly was NOT a "gimme" to anyone.

Keep in mind, sometimes being "picky" doesn't matter. It seems that both PCGS/NGC are currently seeking a certain "look" right now. My personal theory is both services are distracted by various things and are not being consistant or fully concentrating properly on the job. Don't think all the dealers -especially the ones who make a living submitting fresh stuff aren't pissed at BOTH services right now.

To make it worse, we all expect PCGS to be swamped at FUN and that usually has a history of making them even tighter. Hopefully both services will be refocused by then.

My suggestion to you, DON"T GIVE UP! Just wait.

Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com

rkfish

Larry,

Sorry and amazed to hear this news!

I was fortunate to be able to view Larry's Morgan and Peace dollars last february while attending the Long Beach show. About 100+ dollars and I spent one night for about three hours looking them over. I will tell everyone this.....I would pay PQ money for about 80 of them! real PQ money!

I would have to agree with Laura........just wait! Many things get better with time!

PQpeace

Time to go play tennis in the 48 degree cold
will look forward to reading more opinions when I return !
Larry

tradedollarnut

Larry - I saw that Gobrecht also (at least a similar coin) and was amazed at the grade. BUT..just because my 1836 name under base is a point and a half better does not necessarily make mine a lock 66/shot 67. The coin is what it is - a PQ65/shot 66 and all the mistakes or "gimmes" in the world won't change that fact. Keep buying coins you like and you'll be better off for it.

BTW - I have a few in my collection I can point to and say "this one's absolutely undergraded, this one is low end, this one has a shot", etc. Since I never plan on selling, IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER! And even if I did sell, the sharpies at auction would pick them out just fine!

coppercoins

<< <i>Larry no doubt, you are a sharp cookie on these coins, but the ones in power and with the key to make you feel good, think differently! >>



Only one thing can fix that - QUIT FEEDING THEM YOUR MONEY!

People whine, complain, and call the graders wrong, but they go right back and send them another check. Just how wise is that?

SarasotaFrank

Larry:

Long time no hear from. Sorry it is under such disturbing circumstances. I hope you will be visiting soon.

Any chance you are making your way to FUN?

sf

gmarguli

People whine, complain, and call the graders wrong, but they go right back and send them another check. Just how wise is that?

Sometimes it is worth it. Even though you get screwed on 99 out of a 100 coins, that 1 coin can pay for those 99 and then some.

I've long been at the point where I know I will get screwed on grades. I play the game that there will be 1 coin per invoice that will pay for the rest. Sometimes that 1 coin will pay for a months worth of invoices. Sometimes you get lucky and get a couple of coins like that on an invoice. And admittedly, sometimes you don't get any like that for a long time.

wondercoin

Larry: Sorry to hear about your results. I saw a selection of your coins as well and they were quite nice for the grade.

Like I said, this is one big poker game with Joker's Wild. The goal is to always maintain a "chip and a seat" at the game. I too have been very dissapointed of late, but trying to "hang in there". It's like when the draught comes to the Amazon - you just try to survive, all the while hoping for a good rain. Wondercoin

PQpeace

Hi Frank,
I will be flying into Sarasota on the 7thof Jan..will vacation for 2 days..drive to Orlando to stay with RKfish for 2 days..then back to Sarasota for 2 days of tennis in the sun
Let's do lunch ! or drive together to FUN.
Larry
p.s.
About 50 of my extra Morgan and Peace dollars will be on display at the FUN show.They will be in the February B&m auction..

LincolnCentMan

I only send "No Brainer" coins in for regrade. On my first experience, I sent two in and they both upgraded. On my second, I sent two in and neither upgraded. Take a random group of PCGS coins in the same grade for the same denomination, and I'd put money on it that my two that didnt upgrade... would be nicer than 75% of the coins in that group.

I thought about PM'ing DHall to see if he'd take a look at my coins if I footed round trip postage on them. I'm a small fish, though. ...Like he'd want to hear me complain about a couple hundred bucks.

David

coynclecter

Its amazing how they could have graded them all the same as before. what consistancy. It's almost like they knew what the grades were before. How could they?? I'm sure if you believed they should grade higher you would have cracked them out. To send them off in the old holders is asking them to grade them the same and paying them to do it. Kinda foolish to do that.

Oak

<< <i>I honestly think there is some sort of game played with regrades. The graders have to know they are regrades (not grade guarantee reviews) and are probably hard asses on them.



I think I am just about to start another hobby..

Perhaps just a different grading service? >>



I agree on both counts. Given that Larry's coins are very highend I would not be surprised if they recognized a coin from a previous grading session.

While I appreciate PCGS' reputation, if you only buy PCGS you are buying the plastic not the coin. Larry, you should start using NGC. You'll have more influence on PCGS with your wallet than you will with phone calls. And if you're collecting for a personal challenge, it shouldn't matter what holder a coin is in. Either way, best of luck.

Gilbert

Larry, if I were in your position, no doubt I would probably feel the same way.

It IS tough to accept that every single coin you sent in should have upgraded but didn't; UNLESS things aren't as anonymous as we are continually told.

In my mind, the only way to prove you are right and they are wrong would be to simply submit the coins raw. Well, actually there is another long and arduous way, a favorite of mine. That would be to submit each candidate with a written letter arguing the merits and compelling a written response, AND THEN PUBLICIZING the results when they are contrary to the written standards AND the market (the market is "catchall" - it allows the companies to deviate from the written standards). In other words, a publicity campaign.

I admit, the services (and PCGS since that is who we are talking about) are not required to provide a written response, but, it would be in their best interest to not let such circumstances go unchallenged.

If I were in your position, it is exactly how I would handle it. Yeah, some will say it's a waste of time, or too time consuming just to get a slab to correctly reflect what you may already know BUT

... that is the type of person and collector I am. In the end, it would be good for the hobby. I mean, that is what everyone complains about - inconsistency, not adhering to THEIR published standards, grading according to perceived value INSTEAD of the merits of the coin.

I sorta' wish I was in your position. I like resolving controversy, when it's worthwhile, and this hobby IS worthwhile, to me.

Coin Finder

Hi Larry, I have followed your posts for a long time and I consider your opinion very worthy.

Email David Hall and ask for his review. I think he may help. Your coins may take more time to truely appreciate their beauty and grade!

Tbig

PS I am not a suck up I do not collect the series!

PQpeace

If you guys are correct that the nice coins will go for PQ money no matter what holder they are in,I will let you know if this is true in February
Thanks for all your input.
I will be calling Davd Hall next week to let him see a few of my coins
news at 11

Larry