Queller 1840 (o) half scores a 65!

roadrunner

While scanning through the B&M FUN sale catalog today I noticed a coin that looked too familiar. An NGC65 1840 REV38 seated half.
Sure enough, this was the Queller coin that fetched $5060 in that sale. Stack's graded the coin as BU or slightly finer. I felt the coin was a solid 64+ with a fair chance to go 65. It was a very clean coin with subdued luster, very few marks. Since this went off early in the session I still didn't have my feet firmly on the ground and let the coin get away. I was the underbidder and there was surprisingly little action after about $3500. All I can think is that the coin was split among more than one dealer. This is the only logical explanation unless the CDN price for the coin is out to lunch. The coin sold for less than 63 CDN and only half of the 64 level of $10,000. It is unpriced as a 65 and this is the first to slab in that grade at PCGS/NGC. I could guess that it will fetch $12-15K in the slab.

The coin went to bidder #654. He also bought the largest number of coins in this session (same for most other auctions). I would be curious as to whether anyone has an idea as to what this is worth now? It may be a tad overrated based on the pops but it is a fairly popular variety written up on several occasions in the Gobrecht Journal. I probably should have hung in further on the coin as I actually had written down a bid of $8500 for the coin but got cold feet as the bidding quickly died off. I have no doubts that had I stayed in I only would have run the price up and still not get the coin. The experience for help prepare me for the next time.

Comments from you other auction hounds would be appreciated.
TDN, Rony, Oreville, Michael, Trime, EVP, etc.

roadrunner

tradedollarnut

I like the 50-O a few lots later - has a better "look" to my eye.

roadrunner

TDN,

Yeah, I couldn't help but notice the 50-0 half too. It looks to be a lightly toned blazer. The 1855-0 quarter in NGC MS67 is also no slouch. It brought $88K at the Eliasberg sale in 1997. Wonder if will fetch that much again?? If the coin was optimistically graded
then it won't. But based on the photo it appears to be a nice nice coin.

I think the Maytag repairman gets more feedback on his posts than we do talking about 19th century coins. Maybe the NGC Forum is the place to go.


roadrunner

Ronyahski

Didn't make Queller, and can't even find this coin in the catalogue. Only rev38 'O' I see was AU in the catalogue. What lot # was it? Was it catalogued wong as as an 1840? Maybe that explains the weak price.

Or maybe all "those" dealers were huddled together in the back of the room and your suspicions are correct, a laid off coin.

I've never seen one in auction, and can't even find one in all my catalogues, so I see no price history of the coin.

Not sure what this coin should be worth, but agree with you that based on current pops, CDN seems quite high.

Sometimes it's lonely being the Maytag repairman.

Regards

Trime

For Ronyashki, Roadrunner is referring to lot 456 in the Stacks catalogue of the Queller Collection.

Roadrunner,
You have a fantastic eye for coins but on this occassion in New York you missed a great coin at a great price.

It is 259 PST and I am surrounded by catalogues and copies of Gobrecht Bound journals, Breens Encyclopedia and lots of appreciation for the discipline required to be an "advanced collector" (see US Coin Forum post on "What is an Advanced Collector"). After reading the complex descriptions of the likes of Bugert, McCloskey, Lange, and Wiley on the topic of the 1840 New Orleans no mint mark 1840 half, I am again in awe of those that have the knowledge to recognize important varieties as they run a rack of auction coins they are previewing. I will now need to find time to spend several hours studying this coin's pictures and descriptions and the multiple articles on the subject. In the end , I suspect I will have additional questions about this coin. At the outset, it seems that at least some of the above scholars believe that this was an intentional mule and the bust reverse was actually that of 1839 not 1838. Comments would be appreciated.
Regarding it's value, it is apparently worth close to $15,000 already judging by the pre-auction bid on the Bowers sale. The Catalogue auction review for prior prices are all for for lesser grades and are not predicted by the grade shown in the catalogue. A MS64 NGC sold $2750 while an uncertified MS 62 Eliasberg sold for $8800 11 months earlier. ( I do not have the 1997 Bowers Eliasberg Catalogue to view his specimen ). One would have to look at each of the coins sold in the past several decades as 1840 (reverse 38 (o) ) to understand whether they are actually the same varieties. For those that are not LS variety afficianados I offer you a quote on this coin in David Lange's July 1982 Gobrecht Journal article( before the coin was attributed to the New Orleans mint).
" The natural appeal of such a variety is perhaps better understood by collectors of Liberty Seated Coinage than by those whose tastes run to less challenging series. This coin is one that should be on the want list of anyone attempting to collect a date and mint set of liberty seated half dollars, even if he or she does not ordinarily collect special varieties. With perseverance and a great deal of luck, one may even find this piece unattributed and offered at the price of a common variety 1840 half."
Finally, I would comment that collectors special interests vary a lot. Some are enthralled by the beauty of the coin ( see Michaels many posts); for others the variety die state stimulates their interest above but not exclusive of grade. I have so much to learn that I can only fantacize a forum where the Gobrecht Journal was on line with chats of the experts taking place debating the attribution and origens of a interesting coin like this. Thanks to Roadrunner for whetting my interest in this variety.

roadrunner

Trime,

Thanks for that detailed research on this New Orleans coin with no
mintmark. It is also called the Large Letters (sometimes Med Letters) reverse depending on who lists it. All other 1840 halves have the small letters reverse commonly seen from 1839-1842.
So in fact this is likely a mule as you said.

After seeing the internet price on the coin at $15,000 I can probably safely state that the lot was back off on and that left me against the crowd. The same thing has happened before on occasion and sort of made me a bit uneasy. You could only guess that maybe the coin is AT or played with. This one looked to have very orig old time toning. It came out of an NERCG auction in 1981.

I definitely did not MISS this coin as I had it as one of my highlights to buy. I just got snookered and fell for the lack of action on the coin. Funny that if it went closer to the $10,000 with more bidders above $5,000, I would have stayed in right to $10K. I was also tempered a bit by my another set of eyes on the coin that was splitting lots with me and he had the coin as a 63++. Had he seen it
as a 64 or 64+ as I did, it would have taken $10K to buy the coin.

roadrunner

Nic

Roadrunner,
I had the coin as 63/64 in my viewing notes. Do not remember it specifically however. For the most part the Queller coins were certainly not undergraded IMHO. A previous lot-#454, the 1839 WD, I had as 64...you? I left a higher bid than this coins selling price when I unexpectedly had to return home....not executed.
There is no substitute for the knowledge gained by attending auctions in person. Always fun and exciting. Part of the excitement is the psychology involved. It can feel very lonely being the only floor bidder on a coin. I have mistakenly let coins go from lack of bidding/bidders as well. Sometimes it is as hard to pay too little as it is not to pay too much! K

roadrunner

Nic,

Great points. Glad to see I am not alone when snookering abounds.
I saw a monster toned NGC MS67 half dime sell for $1500 at Goldberg's recently and had $3000 to bid on the coin. I dropped out when there was no action except for the leading buyer who bought it. Probably was AT. NOPE. Later that day was told that several were in on at as a 68 shot!

The 1840 (o) in Queller was very nice. It is the kind of very clean,
orig and subdued luster coin that slips by most people. I have always liked those and did very well buying them in the 1989 Market.
I'll bet most saw the coin as 63/64. It had 65 surfaces with a minor rev scratch as I recall. I spend considerable time on the coin and saw it twice before the sale to ensure I saw the coin right. The fact that it is at auction now pretty much confirms to me that there were multiple people on it and now it's time to cash out to the max. I did suspect it could be the finest known or at least graded to date. I referenced the old GJ's and Pryor/Stacks/Eliasberg/Norweb catalogs before bidding on it.

The 1839 half in gem in Queller was bought by a board member via mail bid or internet.
He had asked me for an opinion on it since I offered to do that for anyone who asked. I didn't think I could win the lot since it was graded GEM and it wasn't near 65 grade. So I'm glad someone here got it. It was a technical 63+or++ coin with some tiny knee rub. The color was great. The luster was good too. A 64 looking coin that could grade either way but could certainly find it's way to a 64 holder someday. Still a nice coin and a dealer on the floor was underbidder. It sold for about $3000. It it were in fact a gem it would have sold on the floor for a ton of money.

roadrunner

Nic

Roadrunner,
Thanks for the reply and info. I've been looking for a 39 WD 50c. for some time and felt this had great eye appeal for the issue, even if it didn't do well under a glass. Agree totally with your comments and congratulate the new owner. It may take a couple tries though I feel it will 64. The holdered 64's I've seen(2-pcgs) stunk. Have you ever seen one gem? I've noted a couple in old auction cat.'s that may have a shot. I could not view the Elias. coin prior to its sale.
Snookering does abound; comes and goes in waves it seems. Hang in there! K

roadrunner

Nic,

For some reason this plentiful date rarely if ever appears in gem.
While many of the choice coins over the years have been called gem, the pops have proven out the rarity of this date in true gem
condition. Something I had overlooked until pops bore it out. Another plug for the Pops. Just too many dates to keep track of.
It's very possible that any one P mint date in the 1839-1849 could be much scarcer in gem than currently believed. And the number of crappy 65's floating around doesn't do much to help the situation.
For every truly nice 65 early date I see, that I consider a stone cold 65, I see 10-20 others that are not nice. Probably most every nice 65 from the early 90's and late 80's is either still off the market or been upgraded to 66. I would tend to think the former.

I can only recall seeing one 1839 that I still remember and that was an NGC65 at the last FUN showing being offered for around $7800. Let's just say I had a tough time liking the coin as a solid 64 let along a 65. It wasn't one point nicer than the Queller piece. Anything that I saw in the late 80's is beyond my recall except if I owned it. But I can honestly say I was looking for early full gem 65 halves back then and bid on every one I could find when I hit the auctions. I located but one piece, an 1846 TD. They are far tougher than even the pops show.

roadrunner

EVillageProwler

Roadrunner,

Lot 456 was one that I had my sights on, but when I went to do lot viewing, I was already slightly feverish and desperate to fight off the flu. I vaguely remember the coin, and thought it was VERY clean and better than a mere BU. But, it had impaired luster (to me), and I noted the coin as a ``yuck'' in my catalog.

In my defense, I'd like to point out that I was ill at the time of the lot viewing. And, I never made it back for another round of lot viewing because too many negative issues militated against it. In the end, I settled for one to fruitlessly chase: the '46-O TD.

As a big fan of the Seated series, especially the halves, I am greatly disappointed that I missed out on this opportunity! (Actually, I'm a big fan of the Bust material too.)



EVP