Interesting Resubmission Results
PlayBall
Posts: 463 ✭✭✭
Gator05 (Matt) has claimed that PSA has shafted him on some of his submissions of 1981 Topps. Well, I decided to put my money where his mouth is. I took a group of his "strong" PSA 8's that I had purchased from him, cracked them out, and resubmitted them.
Invoice #8024128
3- PSA 8 NQ
20 - PSA 9 NQ
1 - PSA 9 PD
1 - PSA 10 (straight 2 grade bump)
Now I realize I put PSA in a tough situation, but these were very nice cards, and IMO, they deserved to be in a higher slab. Anyway, I'll give Matt his just due, and thank PSA for giving these cards, what I believe, are the proper grades.
Bernie
Bernie Carlen
Currently collecting.....your guess is as good as mine.
Currently collecting.....your guess is as good as mine.
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Comments
Joe
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Brian
<< <i>did they know they were re-grading previously graded PSA cards? >>
I can answer that, no way in he11.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
ebay id: nolemmings
Like I said, I put PSA in a tough situation, by already knowing that these cards had already been graded, and all were in the same grade. Therefore, anything else but 20+ PSA 8 regrades would look like poor consistancy. However, they did come back with pretty consistant grades (mostly 9's) the second time around, albeit one grade higher.
These cards may have been hurt on their original submission, by being included with pristine 10's, and strong 9's, which received PSA 10's, and PSA 9's respectively. They may have been solid to weak 9's, but as the grader was unconsciously comparing them to the other cards on the submission, they were not as strong and given an 8.
Mohiba,
No, I don't submit many cards. Probably around 100 cards a year, and never more than 40 on any submission. I will be sending the flips from the cracked slabs back to PSA, so hopefully, they will adjust the POP report, and no, they didn't know they were grading previously graded cards.
On a good note, how about the turnaround time.
Bernie
Currently collecting.....your guess is as good as mine.
Matt (Gator5) really should be thrilled now.
OKLAHOMA SOONERS FOOTBALL
LOS ANGELES DODGERS BASEBALL
NEW YORK RANGERS HOCKEY
DETRIOT LIONS FOOTBALL
OKLAHOMA SOONERS BASKETBALL
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
How many cards did Gator05 send in originally, and what were the breakdowns on those?
The reason for this question is that if he sent in a whole bunch, and you got the strongest that were downgraded, you probably had a bunch of consistent high-end 8's. That these came back 9's indicates that the graders were consistent the second time through, meaning that they graded all of the cards approximately the same, but it also indicates that they were not consistent with the original grades.
bruce
Website: http://www.brucemo.com
Email: brucemo@seanet.com
<< <i>How many cards did Gator05 send in originally, and what were the breakdowns on those? >>
An 8 should be an 8, a 9 should be a 9. Just because an invoice has 100 9-quality cards doesn't justify knocking 30 down to an 8.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Bobs,
I'm not saying my theory is correct or acceptable. Just pointing out the possible human side of grading. I'll try to add a picture of the PSA 10 when they cards arrive (but I might need help with this).
Brucemo,
Matt would be able to give you the exact answer, but from what he's told me and I've seen, his submissions are usually 200-250 or more cards.
Currently collecting.....your guess is as good as mine.
Some things should be better left unsaid and this is one case. I'm glad you've
brought this to the boards attention for everyone thinks I'm crazy yet now I'm
sizzlin for I can tell you this I know this set better than anyone in the world and
I rarely get what I deserve and when I don't think I'm going to get any tens they
load me up with them totally crazy....For I have 9's that I wan't in ten holders and
tens that I can't stand to look at!!!!!!!!!
I have never to this day a ran a straight sub of 9's and 10's...For this reason I do
not know for I can tell you this I have over 100-200 copies of each card and your
trying to tell me I don't have all 9's and 10's...I can only complain so much for I have
came to the conclusion I'm my own grader and the raw just keeps building for sometime
I'll have the rest of the set graded in one straight run and that will be my final stand.
As for the rainey boy it has a awesome image for it was a freak deal...I'm glad you
were happy with the results....With all that said anyone needing any blazer 81's
contact me at rmorse@accn.org....
And for the consistency flip a coin your better off!!!!!!
matt aka 81 guru
I understand your point, and grading is subjective. But an 80% miss rate? Ouch, that ain't good.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
Anyhow, this is why I have some nm and lower red man cards in my inventory. Lets face it. I
love to have eights. But 1) I can't afford all eights 2) I think some of my sevens are better than
eights. Not just Psa. I have some Sgc cards that look nicer in the lower grade holders. Obviously
the consistency factor is important. Main reason - Resale value!!
The problem of subjectivity gets more apparent with modern cards such as the 81 Topps. You
can look at a card and it could be an eight one day, a nine or even ten the next. I am a bit
surprised that such a small sample size had this type of changes but it happens and will happen
again.
Thebobs, I hope to add photos and other red man sets soon. Scans don't show everything. But
trust me some of my sixes and sevens measure up pretty well to the eights. If it wasn't for
resale value, I would think I'm a fool for paying such a big premium to add eights when the
sevens are just as nice. I may start getting more aggressive with the 52 set too!
aconte
Geez, Bobs, sorry if I touched a nerve there.
Stuff like this post has made me realize that I had been collecting the holders and not the cards. Hence my decision (recent one) to get out of the PSA set collecting game, though I still like to read all your posts!
Yes, they were all very strong and picked for about 75-80. The rest are in the holders they deserve, which is why I didn't resubmit them all.
Promethius88,
Interesting, very interesting.
Currently collecting.....your guess is as good as mine.
Do you think the rainey I got in 9 is worthy of a 10....
Matt
KKBB
<< <i>An 8 should be an 8, a 9 should be a 9. Just because an invoice has 100 9-quality cards doesn't justify knocking 30 down to an 8. >>
It is very easy to grade some cards. A very nice card with a crease is VG. A card with a hold in it is P. Other times, you find cards that can make an argument for two different grades. If I buy a bunch of PSA-graded cards, any grade, I'll get some that are obviously graded correctly, and some others that I might think are at the high end of the grade or the low end of the grade. If you send in expecting a particular grade, the ones that don't make that grade are probably pretty good examples of the next lower grade.
There is no way that I would expect to be able to send all of these back and get a grade bump up, but I may be able to pick a few if I sent in enough in the first place.
The original post is pretty scary, but I'd still like to hear the numbers. If the original submitter sent in 100 cards, got 75 9's and 25 8's, then those 25 8's should probably not yield 20 9's the second time. But if he sent in 100 cards, got 25 9's and 75 8's, then scoring 20/25 upon resubmission of the *best* 8's is still dubious but at least there might be something to this other than that PSA decides to arbitrarily kill you or make you rich on any given day.
I don't want to speculate until I know more about this.
bruce
Website: http://www.brucemo.com
Email: brucemo@seanet.com
<< <i>I understand your point, and grading is subjective. But an 80% miss rate? Ouch, that ain't good. >>
In NFL football games, 30% of challenged calls are overruled. Does this mean that the referees miss the call 30% of the time? No. It means that they miss the call 30% of the time that the coach sees something weird and is willing to risk a challenge. There are many other calls that the coaches are willing to let pass because they either agree with or admit that they can go either way.
If there were a hundred 8's that were cherry-picked, it's easier, but still not perfectly to easy, to stomach 20/25 of them coming back 9 the second time.
I bet if I went though all of my cards I could find 10 cards that I think deserve a bump up, and I bet I get the bump up on over half.
bruce
Website: http://www.brucemo.com
Email: brucemo@seanet.com
As you know, I have had two cards (that I submitted) go from 8's to 10's (Both are actually worthy of 9's)...
I get a kick out of people who get defensive when they read this stuff. It's a fact folks, deal with it. We've all gotten the "grader of death" and PSA does have some graders who see things real differently from one another. It is a real problem, but one without a clear-cut solution. Matt, they let the guy out of the closet who was grading refractors since last Easter apply his "expertise" to your stock. Maybe the cards "smelled funny"...Matt, are you glossing your cards? Seriously, I've scrutinized Matt's cards in those 8 holders in person and informed him he'd be handled more gently in prison. " Heads it's an 8-- tales it's a..."
Just awful, but not uncommon at all. It's always going to open a can of worms when a submitter knows more about his particular issue than the grader.
What's unsettling for me is that these posts sound as though you guys are shocked or at least suprised. There's nothing to speculate on here. What difference does it make how big the original submission was? If the standard is shifting from lamp to lamp and they're inconsistent--that's what it IS--inconsistent. Period. I'd like to think they're doing the best they can. Heck, I grade my OWN cards differently from month to month. I've just never seen my cards look two grades different...but my neighbor might.
The football analogy is interesting. It's like speeding tickets. If you've only had one, does that mean you've only exceeded the limit once? I hadn't thought of it in those terms. Anyway guys, interesting post.
For I have no clue but my submissions run as follows on a pretty straight
basis per 100 cards in 81's....
10's 10-20 sometimes 25
9's 60-80
8's 20 or so never seems to change
The 8's always seem to = the tens for fwiw....Now your trying to tell me a guy that
can find you 20 81's 10's on a sub that I'm going to have 20 8's please totally crazy!!!
For my submissions I usually pick 5 or so cards that will be 8's but I want them
slabbed for that's what I'm looking for...But 20 it's nuts just because I send them 4
copies of the same card they ind one to label an 8 ok I guess for the next grader
will never get ability to see 4 razor 81 copies so it'll get a 9 because the grader
has nothing to go by....
Phil,
Maybe I'll let the easter massacre out but I'm already steamed enough!!!!!!
I'll save it for when all the boys say that it's not possible....
Matt
Easter Massacre?
OK, I'll be the first
"IT'S NOT POSSIBLE"
<< <i>I may start getting more aggressive with the 52 set too! >>
Ouch. Lets talk. I have some duplicates.
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
<< <i>Ouch. Lets talk. I have some duplicates >>
Don't have many 52 doubles. If interested in any of my others send me your list. We'll talk.
aconte
Wayne
"Grader Of Death"...
We all know that there are huge price differences between 8's and 9's, so this should be taken seriously.
I've adjusted my buying accordingly. I not only adhere to "buy the card, not the holder", but I've also amended it to "buy the card, not the grade".
In the past if it said it was an 8 and had no picture I'd still bid. Now I will not buy graded cards online without seeing a picture of the card. That was necessary when dealing with SGC, but now applies to PSA too.
I can't disagree with anything you said. When I cracked out my last PSA 8 and resub'd and a 10 came back I was really irritated. Happy at the random 10 mind you, but irritated that it took another month and grading fee...the card is STILL not graded correctly--should be a nice 9. There's another smart-arse post on here from another member about whining and so forth...I guess my standards are higher. I don't want perfection, just consistency. An occasional mistake is part of the deal, the 20-30% per invoice can run into the thousands of dollars. That one card went from a wasted grading fee to a 100-150 dollar card. To play the devils advocate, however--what IS the solution?
dgf
Someone who grades a batch of 90's Refractors and than is asked to grade some 60's baseball is not going to have the same eye for consistency.
Break it down this way. Have modern graders (1980-present), separate vintage graders for baseball, football, basketball and hockey and separate graders for pre-war and tobacco material.
Graders would only see the material they are assigned, thus becoming knowledgeable and comfortable with the nuances of the cards they are looking at.
Maybe this would eliminate some of the discrepancies in the grades we are seeing.
I would agree with you on specializing, except there are only like 3 or 4 graders total. They couldnt afford, to hire anymore. If they did the prices would soar.
which leads to believe that
a) they are listening and trying to solve the problem
b) they are not reading this.
Groucho Marx
Amen brothers downgoesfrazier and fabfrank! No one should be suprised or defensive about this and we certainly shouldn't accept it either. IMHO, we should all start shoving the inconsistencies back down the graders throats -- as gaspipe did. They must read this stuff and it can't make them happy -- so we need to keep making noise.
On the bright side, I think that by dealing with PSA and SGC (I submit cards there, too...depends on the card/set) this problem is minimized.
Hey it's good to see you here too!
aconte
BTW, welcome to the boards srs1a!!
Currently collecting.....your guess is as good as mine.
First, this is a problem with every grading company. Grading is very subjective. If you send 20 borderline cards to any company and then resubmit them again, it's almost impossible for them to get the same exact grades on all 20 cards.
I feel bad for Matt. This happened to me in 1999. I submitted hundreds of pristine cards from 1968 and 1969 vending. I was only submitting cards that I felt were either 10's or slamdunk 9's. Typically out of 100 cards, I would get 20-25 PSA 8s and I would be in total disbelief. If I didn't need the PSA 8 card for my collection, I would sell it on eBay. I recall selling a bunch of those 8's to 3 or 4 collectors who were estatic with cards. Two of them cracked their's open and submitted them and got 9's. I was a bit ticked.
From that point on, it made me realize that I need to be the final authority on my grades. If I send in cards and some turn out to be disappointing, I'll carefully inspect them and crack out the ones I feel they graded incorrectly and re-submit them. I usually get 40-50% to bump up. Also, on occassion, I get a card that I feel they overgraded. I'll crack those out too and re-submit them and usually they'll make the right call.
rbeaton started a nice thread where he showed how all of this can happen in an objective and understandable fashion..and you are right, Dude, this is not a problem unique to any grading service. But, the problem seems to have gotten a bit more severe recently, based on the discussions on this board...and, as consumers, we have the right to make noise and expect something to happen. By shoving it down their throats, I mean simply to resubmit the card and ask for an explanation...this is time consuming and costly for PSA, and should lead to some sort of action.
...and Dude, I bought some very nice '68 8's from a character named Apollocat on eBAY!
Scott